OT: Apple says screw you law enforcement!

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On Saturday, February 20, 2016 at 1:26:15 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

What evidence do you have that the FBI didn't start very quietly but wound up having to go to court because Apple oabviously won't cooperate? This has been going on for two months, it didn't happen in a day or two.

That would be the sure path, but it could still take years depending on how secure that encryption is. You'd take the cypher algorithm, keys, and crunch it on a supercomputer. But the FBI has seen PWDS they used on other accounts, devices, etc and likely has a list of a whole bunch of possibilities to run through the phone itself, figuring that they may get lucky and crack it that way.
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On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 15:02:04 -0800 (PST), trader_4

Aren't there people who look at court filings or dockets every day, looking for news stories to write.
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On 2/20/2016 11:25 AM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

When you're making things in large enough volumes (like Apple), there might not *be* a "FLASH chip". Rather, the FLASH -- or, the portion that is important -- may be embedded on the CPU itself.
Or, a "custom" device.
Especially where size and battery life are important (e.g., the disk drives used in iPods were designed to have performance "just good enough" to play music files; a "disk drive manufacturer" wouldn't have thought of making them that "bad"!)
So, instead of just cracking a code, you also have to reverse engineer a *circuit*.
And, do you do this for *every* phone that can run "apps"? At the same time, risking losing that capability as soon as the manufacturer releases a NEW phone (different circuit, different components, different cipher, etc.)
What do you do for Nokia phones? Prohibit them from being imported??
These people arent' stupid; they KNOW the solution (from their standpoint) is to get the manufacturers to do the work FOR them!
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On Saturday, February 20, 2016 at 6:26:06 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

There has to be flash memory to hold the OS, unless you want to put it into ROM, which no one does, because then you couldn't do firmware updates. And extremely unlikely it's in a chip that is anything but flash memory. Flash memory and devices like CPUs, signal processors, etc are on processes that are optimized for different things. Bottom line, you need a good size flash memory to hold the OS and data and almost 100% that's what is in that phone.

Extremely unlikely that Apple invented it's own flash memory, figured out how to have it fabbed somewhere, etc, when there are plenty of commercial variants suited to the purpose and there is no compelling competitive advantage. Cell phones are a major market and the flash makers aren't stupid.
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On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:11:26 -0800 (PST), trader_4

At least one TV program, probably NBC nightly news, included this.

Its simple drawing showed wires going to the phone. Bluetooth would be better but I think they can simulate the keyboard if they have to.
That program or another also said that NYC has 70 phones they would like to crack, would like help cracking.
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Micky wrote:

When I was working team of guys took 6 months to crack a system with security rating of B2. I believe FBI wants to save time to get going with their investigation; possibly a matter of national security. There is no such thing as perfectly secured anything in this world. Apple is not above law, they are just doing political stunt(kind of an advertisement of their OS)
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One funny story I heard about cracking ws Charles Mansons computer. The government tried for a long time to crack a file on a computer found at his place. When they could not do it, he admitted that he did not have anything to do with comuters and it was just random key presses he did at one time.
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it seems to me that this seems more likely a case of the gov't covering its ass...we have the NSA that can recruit the smartest people in the world and they are saying they can't crack the encryption. I say bullshit...if they can't crack it, they don't deserve any future funding, if they can crack it, they have cracked it and don't want anyone to know that.
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Micky wrote:

time. That's it. If Apple doesn't want to do it, some one else will.
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On 2/20/2016 2:08 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:

No. A one-time pad can't be cracked.
OTOH, I'm 100.0% sure this technology is not in use BY DEFAULT in their phones! (But, there's nothing to prevent the phones OWNER from having used it!)
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Per Tony Hwang:

Yet they keep after Apple.... which seems to support the idea that setting precedent is part of what they really want.
--
Pete Cresswell

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On Saturday, February 20, 2016 at 4:09:29 PM UTC-5, Tony Hwang wrote:

I wonder what Apple would think if the FBI offered a $100K reward for anyone that can show them how to do what is that they are seeking to do with that model iPhone? It would be interesting. Instead of Apple doing it in their labs, you'd have 1000 of the best hackers around the world working on it.
It would seem that to do what they want done the phone just needs to be flashed with a new version of software. How you can do that with a phone that's locked, IDK. Assuming Apple doesn't already have some backdoor to be able to download and install it, then it would seem that you'd have to somehow manually get that code in there, possibly by having to remove the flash memory chip, copying the data portion to a new chip together with the new OS code, then putting it back in the phone.
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On 2/20/2016 6:17 PM, trader_4 wrote:

Maybe someone already has!
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wrote:

An NPR story yesterday said that Apple had already quietly cracked about 70 phones for NYC police.
And that with the next phone, in NY, it was the judge who decided to go public about the whole thing. I think this preceded the case in the news.
And an NPR story this morning said that an email Apple sent to employees last night thanked them for their support and acknowledged that they *could* unlock the phone, but thought it was a bad idea. Even though the current request is only to get around the 10-try limit, I think they're saying they could .... well, all they would have to do is cancel the 10-try limit and then do what the FBI was planning to do, try all the codes sequentially until the right one was found. I think there are only 10,000. Four digits, right?
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On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 8:28:43 AM UTC-5, Micky wrote:

There are at least 6 and not sure if they are limited to numbers. This has been confusing from the start. The media talked about 6, but were showing a phone screen with the minimal 4 digit passcode. At the same time, they said it could be alphanumeric. More recently I saw a screen shot on TV where they showed a 6 place entry, with a keypad screen like a phone, ie 1 is also ABC. So, IDK. With that screen, it's limited to the 1 mil combinations, alphabet isn't adding anything. It's possible there is a setting for higher security and that gives you the ability to use letters too, in which case it's 68 bil. Anyone have an iPhone?
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On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 06:06:23 -0800 (PST), trader_4

I think it was the first TV story, the one with the drawing of the keyboard and some wires, that the narrator not only said 4 digits, but specifically said "10,000".
However even if it's billions, it won't take that much longer.

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On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 9:40:14 AM UTC-5, Micky wrote:

Did they say that was the *only* possible security setting for that iPhone?

Really, you think 68 bil possible codes doesn't take much longer than 10,000? That's the whole point to modern cyphers, that we know how to crack them all, it's the large amount of time it takes that provides the security. In this case, it would take 6.8 mil times longer.
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On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 07:27:04 -0800 (PST), trader_4

They said ttbomr that there were 10,000 possible codes for this phone.

But in days, it wouldn't be much longer.
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On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 12:29:52 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:

But they didn't say that was the *only* option. AFAIK, like many phones today, there are a variety of PWD options that you can choose from. And as I said, I saw an iPhone 5 on TV being shown with a six digit PWD. Just because the default is a simple 4 digit one, doesn't mean that there aren't far more secure ones. 4 digits and RSA type encryption that even NSA can't break, don't compute.

Baloney. One day or one hour times 6.8mil isn't much longer? The whole modern ecryption world, including this iPhone encryption, is based on very large prime numbers and the fact that it takes even a supercomputer many years to crack them. The encryption algorithms are public, have been researched by mathematicians, published, etc. What they rely on is that without knowing the key, they can't be quickly broken by even a supercomputer. Whether that code is just 6 digits, 6 alphanumeric characters, or a longer alphanumeric string makes a HUGE difference.
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On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 09:45:19 -0800 (PST), trader_4

I think it implies that, but what difference does it make? If that's what they meant and they were wrong, or if that's not what they meant, or if they weren't wrong, so what?
News shows have been wrong before and they'll be wrong again. Who cares.

It doesn't take an hour to enter a 10-digit code, and know if the phone becomes unlocked or not.

None of this matters.

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