On Saturday, February 20, 2016 at 1:26:15 PM UTC-5, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
What evidence do you have that the FBI didn't start very quietly but
wound up having to go to court because Apple oabviously won't
cooperate? This has been going on for two months, it didn't happen
in a day or two.
That would be the sure path, but it could still take years depending
on how secure that encryption is. You'd take the cypher algorithm,
keys, and crunch it on a supercomputer. But the FBI has seen PWDS
they used on other accounts, devices, etc and likely has a list of
a whole bunch of possibilities to run through the phone itself,
figuring that they may get lucky and crack it that way.
On 2/20/2016 11:25 AM, email@example.com wrote:
When you're making things in large enough volumes (like Apple),
there might not *be* a "FLASH chip". Rather, the FLASH -- or,
the portion that is important -- may be embedded on the CPU
Or, a "custom" device.
Especially where size and battery life are important (e.g., the disk
drives used in iPods were designed to have performance "just good enough"
to play music files; a "disk drive manufacturer" wouldn't have thought
of making them that "bad"!)
So, instead of just cracking a code, you also have to reverse engineer
And, do you do this for *every* phone that can run "apps"?
At the same time, risking losing that capability as soon as
the manufacturer releases a NEW phone (different circuit,
different components, different cipher, etc.)
What do you do for Nokia phones? Prohibit them from being imported??
These people arent' stupid; they KNOW the solution (from their
standpoint) is to get the manufacturers to do the work FOR them!
On Saturday, February 20, 2016 at 6:26:06 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
There has to be flash memory to hold the OS, unless you want to
put it into ROM, which no one does, because then you couldn't
do firmware updates. And extremely unlikely it's in a chip
that is anything but flash memory. Flash memory and devices
like CPUs, signal processors, etc are on processes that are
optimized for different things. Bottom line, you need a good
size flash memory to hold the OS and data and almost 100% that's
what is in that phone.
Extremely unlikely that Apple invented it's own flash memory,
figured out how to have it fabbed somewhere, etc, when there are
plenty of commercial variants suited to the purpose and there is
no compelling competitive advantage. Cell phones are a major
market and the flash makers aren't stupid.
On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:11:26 -0800 (PST), trader_4
At least one TV program, probably NBC nightly news, included this.
Its simple drawing showed wires going to the phone. Bluetooth would
be better but I think they can simulate the keyboard if they have to.
That program or another also said that NYC has 70 phones they would
like to crack, would like help cracking.
When I was working team of guys took 6 months to crack a
system with security rating of B2. I believe FBI wants to save
time to get going with their investigation; possibly a matter of
national security. There is no such thing as perfectly secured anything
in this world. Apple is not above law, they are just doing political
stunt(kind of an advertisement of their OS)
One funny story I heard about cracking ws Charles Mansons computer. The
government tried for a long time to crack a file on a computer found at his
place. When they could not do it, he admitted that he did not have anything
to do with comuters and it was just random key presses he did at one time.
it seems to me that this seems more likely a case of the gov't covering
its ass...we have the NSA that can recruit the smartest people in the
world and they are saying they can't crack the encryption. I say
bullshit...if they can't crack it, they don't deserve any future
funding, if they can crack it, they have cracked it and don't want
anyone to know that.
On Saturday, February 20, 2016 at 4:09:29 PM UTC-5, Tony Hwang wrote:
I wonder what Apple would think if the FBI offered a $100K reward
for anyone that can show them how to do what is that they are
seeking to do with that model iPhone? It would be interesting.
Instead of Apple doing it in their labs, you'd have 1000 of the
best hackers around the world working on it.
It would seem that to do what they want done the phone just needs
to be flashed with a new version of software. How you can do that
with a phone that's locked, IDK. Assuming Apple doesn't already
have some backdoor to be able to download and install it, then it
would seem that you'd have to somehow manually get that code in
there, possibly by having to remove the flash memory chip, copying
the data portion to a new chip together with the new OS code,
then putting it back in the phone.
An NPR story yesterday said that Apple had already quietly cracked
about 70 phones for NYC police.
And that with the next phone, in NY, it was the judge who decided to
go public about the whole thing. I think this preceded the case in
And an NPR story this morning said that an email Apple sent to
employees last night thanked them for their support and acknowledged
that they *could* unlock the phone, but thought it was a bad idea.
Even though the current request is only to get around the 10-try
limit, I think they're saying they could .... well, all they would
have to do is cancel the 10-try limit and then do what the FBI was
planning to do, try all the codes sequentially until the right one was
found. I think there are only 10,000. Four digits, right?
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 8:28:43 AM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
There are at least 6 and not sure if they are limited to numbers.
This has been confusing from the start. The media talked about 6, but
were showing a phone screen with the minimal 4 digit passcode.
At the same time, they said it could be alphanumeric. More recently
I saw a screen shot on TV where they showed a 6 place entry, with
a keypad screen like a phone, ie 1 is also ABC. So, IDK. With that
screen, it's limited to the 1 mil combinations, alphabet isn't
adding anything. It's possible there
is a setting for higher security and that gives you the ability to
use letters too, in which case it's 68 bil. Anyone have an iPhone?
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 06:06:23 -0800 (PST), trader_4
I think it was the first TV story, the one with the drawing of the
keyboard and some wires, that the narrator not only said 4 digits, but
specifically said "10,000".
However even if it's billions, it won't take that much longer.
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 9:40:14 AM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
Did they say that was the *only* possible security setting for that iPhone?
Really, you think 68 bil possible codes doesn't take much
longer than 10,000? That's the whole point to modern cyphers,
that we know how to crack them all, it's the large amount of time it
takes that provides the security. In this case, it would
take 6.8 mil times longer.
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 12:29:52 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
But they didn't say that was the *only* option. AFAIK, like many
phones today, there are a variety of PWD options that you can choose
from. And as I said, I saw an iPhone 5 on TV being shown with a six
digit PWD. Just because the default is a simple 4 digit one, doesn't mean
that there aren't far more secure ones. 4 digits and RSA type encryption
that even NSA can't break, don't compute.
Baloney. One day or one hour times 6.8mil isn't much longer?
The whole modern ecryption world, including this iPhone encryption,
is based on very large prime numbers and the fact that it takes even
a supercomputer many years to crack them. The encryption algorithms
are public, have been researched by mathematicians, published, etc.
What they rely on is that without knowing the key, they can't be
quickly broken by even a supercomputer. Whether that code is just
6 digits, 6 alphanumeric characters, or a longer alphanumeric string
makes a HUGE difference.
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 09:45:19 -0800 (PST), trader_4
I think it implies that, but what difference does it make? If that's
what they meant and they were wrong, or if that's not what they meant,
or if they weren't wrong, so what?
News shows have been wrong before and they'll be wrong again. Who
It doesn't take an hour to enter a 10-digit code, and know if the
phone becomes unlocked or not.
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