Need opinions, Carrier vs Rheem (4-ton, 12SEER unit)

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Also, get a QUOTE and not an "estimate"......
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Tranes fine...overpriced, but then, the company went belly up in the 80s and was saved by American Standard..the toilet bowl company........think about it..
Also, in a nutshell, FUCK home depot....period....they are NOTHING but a middleman that is costing you more money.... Tell ya what...I can get a York guy out there, and hes only gonna charge you what *I* tell him to.....think about that..see..Home Depot is doing nothin but taking money from you for doing nothing that you cant do...they will call the same Trane dealers you can...charge you more for doing nothing more than making a phone call.....now..I dont know about you, but a $1500 phone calls kinda high..

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Carolina Breeze HVAC wrote:

Of course, Trane was in the plumbing business long before it ever became an HVAC company.
Think about that.
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Quick update guys....
3 different folks came over to the house and looked at my system/house, and gave me quotes....now here are some of the points that I need some feedback on:
1. They all confirmed that at the end of the year there will be no more sub 13SEER models....13 will be the lowest end. Which brings to the point, doesn't it make more sense to buy a 13 SEER given that parts and what not will be more readily available in the future?
2. Couple of the guys who came out install both Carrier, trane, and Rheem, and they all agreed that Trane makes the better part......is this accurate? They all mentioned the way the parts are made, the all aluminum fins, etc etc.
3. going to a 13 SEER (r22) variable speed units, I'm looking at $3700 for either Trane or Carrier (with the Rheem at $3250). Going to a 14 SEER, R410, Trane we are looking at $4300!! Trane apparently has a promotion as well to have free Electric air filters when you go to their XL14i series......................here is where I am stomped! is it worth it to invest the extra $500 or so to go with the XL series unit, R410, and the electric air filter thingy, or just stick with the XR12, R22, units for $3500?
so basically it breaks down like this:
Rheem, 12 SEER, one-speed, RAMM series : $2700 Rheem, 13 SEER, var speed, RAMC series: $3250 Carrier, 12 SEER, one-speed, comfort series: $2900 Carrier, 13 SEER, var speed, perf series R22: $3500 Carrier, 13 SEER, var speed, perf series R410: $4100 Carrier, 14 SEER, var speed, perf series R410: $4300 Trane, 13 SEER, var speed, XR12, R22: $3500 Trane, 13 SEER, var speed, XR12 R410: $3800 Trane, 14 SEER, var speed, XL12 R410, $4300 (free electric air filter, etc)
any thoughts?
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alt,
Variable spped indoor units are usually quieter.
Variable speed indoor units will dehumidify better when set to enhanced mode.
Variable speed blower motors are more efficient than standard motors
Variable speed blower motors are more powerful than standard motors in most applications. They will help overcome minor duct restrictions and high resistance air filters.
If humidity is a problem, Trane/American Standard has some of the lowest sensible heat ratios (SHR) in the industry. That means they dehumidify better. NOTE: This assumes they are installed properly, refrigerant charge & air flow are correct and unit is not oversized! It is also important to seal any ducts that are outside the thermal envelope/pressure envelope of the house.
Stretch
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alt.home.repair wrote:

Trane, 13 SEER, var speed, XR12, R22: $3500
Is this a heat pump or A/C only? If it is a heat pump then that's a good installed price for this equipment here in Florida, and it would be my choice among those listed. Get a 10 year factory parts and labor warranty for another $400 or so and you won't have to worry about anything until 2015.
Also see if your local power company offers a rebate for installing > 12 SEER heat pumps.
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the price is for the AC unit outside, plus new handler inside.... the warranty is 10-5-1, but when going with the XL series, it becomes 10-10-2.
I'm thinking this, or perhaps the XL series one....not sure if the price diff is worth it...
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alt.home.repair wrote:

You should be able to buy a 10-10-10 warranty for the XR12 for $400 MOL.
Have you considered a heat pump instead of straight A/C? Heat pumps are quite cost effective here in the south.
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no, it never really crossed my mind about the heat pump....almost no-body has one, so I don't know.
if the unit costs $3500 for a 13 SEER, XR12, R22, 10-5-1, then do you think it makes sense to try and get the $4300 14SEER, XL series, 10-10-2 ?? even if I get the 10-10-10 for $400 on the other model, I'm still only $400 away from a better unit outside, higher SEER, and newer technology.....just some thought, not to mention the free electric filter thingy.
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alt.home.repair wrote:

The XL14 is certainly a nice system...I like the side-discharge top design which keeps water off the condenser fan motor. When paired with a VS air handler the system is rated at 15.0 SEER. It does have a big footprint 50Hx37Wx34D so make sure that it will fit on your pad with 12" clearances on at least two sides, and the other two sides unrestricted.
The warranties aren't directly comparable. A 10 year Trane extended parts and labor warranty covers everything that could go wrong with the system, while the "10-10-2" warranty is 10 years on the compressor, 10 years on other "internal functional parts", and 2 years labor.
Let's assume that after two years a braze joint develops a pinhole leak and all the refrigerant leaks out. Absent the extended warranty you will be charged for the cost of the service call, the repair, and the replacement refrigerant.
http://www.trane.com/Residential/TraneOwners/WarrantyFAQ.aspx
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Travis, how much would you say is worth it to go to the XLi series? there is almost a 1K jump in price, so I don't know....is it worth it?
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alt.home.repair wrote:

Going from 13.0 SEER to 15.0 SEER means you'll save about 15% on your air conditioning bill. Where I live the electric power rate is about 10.5 cent / KWh (all taxes, fees, etc. included). Let's assume yours is the same for this exercise. 4 Tons is 48,000 BTU. At 13 SEER a 48K BTU system will consume approximately (48K/13) 3.7KW. At 15 SEER the power usage would be (48K/15) 3.2KW. So for every hour that the system runs you will save approximately (3.7 - 3.2)= .5KW x $.105 = $.0525, or a lttle over 5 cents an hour. If your A/C is sized correctly it should run about 50% of the time on a 24 hour basis. So .0525 x 12 = .63/day, or about $19.00 a month during peak summer temperatures. Let's say there are five months a year where the A/C runs 50% of the time, the rest of the year it doesn't run a significant amount.
Now we consider the opportunity cost on the $1000 incremental cost. If you were to invest it at 3.5% (Emigrant Direct's current money market rate) you'd earn $35 a year. Depending on your tax bracket that might be a $28 net return. Incorporating this into our calculation we get $19*5 months - $28 opportunity cost = $67 net savings/year. If you 'invest' the $1000 to net $67 in savings it will take 14.9 years to recover your 'investment', assuming that electric rates don't go up.
Is it worth it? In most cases, no. YMMV.
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that's what I thought.....thanks!
ps- great breakdown there ;-)
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alt.home.repair wrote:

You are welcome! Good luck with whatever system you choose.
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Travis Jordan wrote:

And don't forget to have your contractor perform a full room-by-room "Manual J" heat gain calculation before you finalize the system size. Four tons may be OK, but it could also be oversized or undersized. The only way to 'right size' it is through a formal calculation. Your contractor should be willing to do this as part of the contract. If they aren't, find another contractor.
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Travis....I talked to the installer once again, and here are some of the final numbers....it will be one of these systems that I go with:
1) Trane 13SEER, XR12 series, 10-5-1 warranty, $3495 (+$495 for 10-10-10)
2) Trane 15SEER, XL14i series, 10-10-2, $4395 (plus free electric air filtering system, a $1200 value..I looked it up online)
I will go with one of these, but I just don't know if the extra $900 is worth it....it's a higher SEER, its the XL14 series which has dual blower speeds, humidifier, etc, etc, plus it has the oem 10-10 warranty (2 on labor).....I know the XR12 is very good as well, so I am comfortable with that one, but the extra OEM warranty and free filtering system, as well as the better technology for $900 is something I am pondering...
any thoughts?
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alt.home.repair wrote:

What's the price on a 10-10-10 warranty for the XL14i?
Please clarify what you are saying about the humidifier...is the contractor offering a humidifier or an air cleaner with the XL14i?
Note that if you get the air cleaner you want it to be located somewhere easy to get to for cleaning -- ie NOT in the attic.
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I just got off the phone with him, and he said he is willing to do this, best case:
XR12, 10-10-10 = $3495 + 495 = $3990 XL14, 10-10-2 = $4395 XL14, 10-10-10 = $4395 + 300 = $4695
The air cleaner is an electric air filtering system from trane: http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/AirCleaners.aspx
it pairs up with the Handler, inside the closet where the handler would be, and the MSRP on it is $1200 (again, obviously this is not a good price, is just msrp, but nonetheless is free with teh XL series). yes, I will have access to it,since it will be in the closet upstairs in the second floor of the house.
My wife is leaning towards the XR12 series for $3495, since she doesn't know how long we will be in the house, and given our financial situation, etc......But, the more I think about it, the more I like the value for performance of going with the XL....perhaps it's just my nature of wanting the best, and not what I need....;-)
what do you think?
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alt.home.repair wrote:

Get the warranty regardless of which system you select. It will give you peace of mind for the next decade.
I think here in Florida these are good prices for both of those systems, and that you would be happy with either one of them. Don't forget about doing the heat gain calculation before you firm up the size.
If you or anyone in your family have any allergies the air cleaner would be worth the additional cost, especially since it will be easy to get to in the closet. Also note that it would be a selling feature when you go to sell your home (might get you a few hundred $$$ in pricing at that time).
Let us know what you decide to do, and how the installation turns out.
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