GFI Outlet

Hi Paul; Something sort of resonant at that frequency eh; wiring is probably some multiple or sub-multiple of the metres of wavelength being transmitted? e.g. A quarter wavelength at say 20 metres (14 mhz.) is approx 16 feet!

Also there are so many electronic gadgets around these days; for example. When I am away my neighbour turns on at night, (and off each morning) my house lights from across the street, using a 'key-fob' device (probably around 350 mhz?). But once or twice we have found the lights switched off; we don't know how; possibly by some radio/taxi etc. going down the road late at night keying their radio?

Which leads me to a story about a radio amateur who was being checked out to ensure his equipment was transmitting on only the frequencies it was supposed to.

It was. And complied completely with the regulatory authority's (FCC etc.) technical requirements.

The problem was that it was an older housing area with numerous 'dodgy' wiring, older appliances, self hooked up TV sets and what have you and was these that were picking up the radio signals.

Finally after investigating many of the 'complaints' and recommending the fixing of many problems, they visited an elderly lady who said; "Oh yes I often listen in. It's very interesting I can hear his conversation 'ON MY ELCTRIC HEATER'.

Apparently there was a slight 'bad joint' in one of the connections which acted as rectifier (just like a crystal set detector), the coiled heater element was an inductance and the metal frame of the heater acted as a sound box. It all adding up to a suitable 'receiver' for waht was a relatively powerful radio signal nearby. She declined to have anything done to the heater!

Also there were a lot of problems with early TV sets because they could/would not properly reject signals outside the TV bands. Again no fault of the radio transmitters.

And I have a cheap hand held, none rechargeable shaver that creates chaos on any nearby radio! Shouldn't be allowed to be sold in my opinion!

Reply to
stan
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If the appliance is tripping a non-defective GFCI, then it is measurably less safe than an appliance which does not trip a GFCI. So if the receptacle location is not required to have a GFCI under the NEC, and you don't mind the extra safety risk, go ahead and do that.

Cheers, Wayne

Reply to
Wayne Whitney

It only depends on the inspector within the realm of the requirements. He can not unilaterally allow or disallow anything that is specced in either the NEC, NFPA or local code ordnances etc.. GFCI's are either required in some locatiosn or they are not. Any inspector who sees it otherwise should be reported so he can be removed from his job. The inspector is NEVER the one who interprets the code: that's why there are committees to decide/implement local requirements and even those must still be done within the confines of the NEC etc. NEC, NFPA and so on are MINIMUM requirements and often locall communities will clarify or add to those requirements, but they cannot remove an NEC requirement for, say, 3-prong receptacles or anything else. They can only ADD TO the NEC per its permitted modifications statements.

HTH,

Twayne`

Reply to
Twayne

I only mention this because too many people thing GFIs work on the ground lead:

It's strictly an imbalance between Hot and Neutral: whether the current goes to gound or anywhere else. GFCIs do not require the ground lead to operate and don't care about it. It's an assumption that a voltge difference will be to ground but it could be to any other place such as another line or short between adjoining cables by a nail, etc. etc..

Reply to
Twayne

More accurately, if the Hot and Neutral currents are not equal within a tolerance range, a gfi will trip. It doesn't matter where the current leaks to; it can be to other than ground. It's just that usually it will be ground. So, it's "Only if it leaks current from one conductor more than another, regardless of whether it's to ground or not.". Ground is irrelevant to the operation of a GFCI.

HTH,

Twayne`

Reply to
Twayne

By measuring from the case (intended to be but not grounded and metal) to earth gnd is a measurement of two different references, one of which is floating. In a non-fault system, the green gnd wire only has a reference back to the service box and carries zero current. You are extremely unlikely to see 120Vac on that wire. If you do see a solid 120Vac, then there is another ground connection somewhere on the unit meaning a FAULT exists that needs attention. Depending on the length of that floating ground wire, one end open, the other connected at the service box, you will see, usually between

15Vac and 90Vac. You will specifically NOT see the identical voltage you see between Hot and Neutral. Depending on what other current carrying wires may be parallel to the floating ground, crossing it (little effect), or any other fields that may impact it, including the earth's magnetic field and some other rudimentary sources, along with the measuring instrument's input impedance, battery or line operated, and whether one lead is earth grounded (capacitively, usually), and the distance from the box, you will see differing "phantom" voltages appear on the measuring instrument. It's a very simple task to prove whether what you're seeing is a phantom voltage or an actual improper connection of some sort. Just lower the measureing instrument's input impedance with a bulb, resistor, even a wet finger and you'll see the voltage drop to 0.0x V quickly. You would have the same condition if you disconnected the wire at the service box and connected it to the unit, but you'd have to go measure at the Service Box to see it.

It may be spikes when it starts and

Phantom voltages are completely safe and have no potential behind them. With one end of a wire open, current can NOT flow! Removing earth ground creates an open ckt! NO current can flow in an open ckt. With no source behind the phantom voltage, as soon as it gets a path to anywhere, the voltage will disappear. As soon as you remove your measuring equipment, the voltage becomes unknown. You will not measure any current unless you have something capable of measureing micro-amps across a known resistor, or just using the meter's input Z for that figure. There is no need to fear a phantom voltage. There IS a reason to fear a voltage though, in the event it's NOT a phantom and is instead a fault situation where it is actually connected somehow to something with a connection outside the intended ckt. That has to be fixed and quickly! Else make sure the fire insurance is paid to date.

What? If there ever WERE a burnt smell to it, you'd have a pretty special nose to pick it out from the intentionally added "perfume" they put into it. Freon is odorless and deadly; that bad smell is in all freon perfume; they don't make freon without it.

HTH,

Twayne`

Reply to
Twayne

Florida has a uniform building code statewide with no local amendments. That doesn't mean you don't have different opinions about what it says. A quick peek at the IAEI Florida yacking group and you can see the arguments. Going to an IAEI meeting is sure to open your eyes about how inspectors do their job. The organization tries to get uniformity among members but there are plenty of AHJs who don't confer with their neighbors or join the trade groups. Any builder will tell you the rules change as you move between jurisdictions.

Reply to
gfretwell

Just for preciseness because too many people think gnd is neccessary for a GFI to work: It's not the current to ground that is detected; it is the difference in current between the Hot and Neutral wires that is detected. The ckt to ground is where the current went, but what's detected is the Hot/Neutral current difference > 5 mA.

That's good to know. I use GFCI's for those, even on my shop tools but I didn't know it was a requirement. It seems that as long as I keep one tool to one breaker, I don't have any problems nowadays. I did think once I had one that was nuisance tripping, until I realized it was one particular tool when I plugged it into my bench. Rewired the tool; all OK. Never did figure out the "problem" but it's gone now. And I've had one GFCI that just plain quit working; no test, no set, nothing; it's straight thru like it's not there anymore. Guess NOW, I'm planning to switch that one out this weekend!

Cheers,

Twayne``

Reply to
Twayne

You are quite right that the current can also leak to a conductor of another circuit. And GFCIs will work on an ungrounded circuit and increase safety. But I wouldn't go quite so far as to say the ground is irrelevant; grounding still improves safety. For example, if an ungrounded appliance on a GFCI circuit has a high resistance short from hot to the case, the GFCI won't trip until you complete the circuit from the case to ground or another circuit's conductor. While if the appliance is grounded, the GFCI will trip as soon as current through the short exceeds the 5ma threshhold.

Cheers, Wayne

Reply to
Wayne Whitney

The inspector IS the one who interprets the code. He doesn't write it, but it is his reading of the code that he enforces. Two inspectors in the same city may differe significantly in what they allow or dissalow in some particular instances.

My Dad was an electrician for many years, and he got to know what each inspector in the area wanted to see. If he knew which inspector he was going to be dealing with, he could be sure he was not going to get any defects. What satisfied one would rub the other the wrong way, and vise versa.

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Reply to
clare

Capacitive /inductive vs resistive coupling to ground. You can have insulation good for 50,000 volts on a 110 device and still get an inbalance on startup if the inductive OR capacitive reactance is too high.

Reply to
clare

Something is not RIGHT - but it may not have any ground fault - and the GFCI may be to spec. Everything may be working according to it's design - therefore NO FAULT. Just a design incompatability.

Reply to
clare

Less safe only in that it is not protected against ground faults. The device itself may have absolutely no safety issues, and still trip the GFCI.

Reply to
clare

Or extreme cases of power factor - leading or lagging current??????

Reply to
clare

that's when it's time to do some serious documentation, and go have a sit down pow wow with the city manager. get them boys on the same page or get rid of 'em.

s
Reply to
Steve Barker

I only meant it's irrelevant to tripping the gfi; not that that a safety ground is irrelevant period. Could have been more precise I guess.

Twayne`

Reply to
Twayne

They DO, but it's not their job to. They in theory all should inspect/pass the same things every time. They can only interpret where the local zoning/code office has failed to clarify. Anything else and they are deficient in their duties. They are "inspectors", not "interpretors". They are NOT free to interpret a case that is covered in the local code enforcement's rulings unless it is specifically spelled out to be dependent on certain things which way accept/deny goes. I know they still do it, but the first one I see doing it and I know he's wrong is in for some rude surprises.

That's "yesterday" and went on a lot. It still does to a degree but it's a lot less than it used to be. And if it happens, the inspector has to write up his findings and WHY his decision keeps the code. I had a neighbor with an inspector that didn't like conduit changing to Romex at one of the boxes; wasn't familiar with the new Romex connectors I used and had never seen one. Since I did the wiring, I knew exactly how it had been done. It only took one trip to the code enforcement office to get it fixed. That's where I decided "never again under my watch".

Reply to
Twayne

For sure. It's an "iffy" area.

Reply to
Twayne

Yup; that's the inductive/capacitive arguement for their tripping. But if you think about it, even surges/spikes from a motor may be latitudinal and not longitudinal. I know it's true that they don't false-trip nearly as much these days so I think I might have to see if there are any articles that explain how they do that. Maybe it's the dv/dt they've started to look at.

Twayne`

Reply to
Twayne

In most cases, it is far easier and cheaper to do what they want, no matter what the code. I'd rather spend $30 to put the two GFCI in the counter than to piss off everyone at town hall and have to spend many times that to prove I'm right. If you piss of the electric inspector you will probably get a tough time from the plumbing and building inspectors too. Choose your battles carefully

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

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