You are right. in a dwelling unit kitchen you only have to protect the
receptacles serving the countertop. My mistake, sorry for any
confusion. I have been in commercial since the 2008.
They stopped building houses ;-(
BTW it is strange that you also don't need AFCIs or GFCIs on any
receptacles in the kitchen that don't serve the countertop.
I bet someone plugged that loophole in the 2011. I will have to look
at the ROP when I get a minute. The draft is out too.
On 9/10/2009 6:38 PM email@example.com spake thus:
As you know, it all ultimately depends on the inspector. A friend of
mine had to install GFCIs in his remodeled kitchen even in some remote
outlets not on the countertop; one was under an island (no sink nearby),
the other was a wall outlet.
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism
It only depends on the inspector within the realm of the requirements.
He can not unilaterally allow or disallow anything that is specced in
either the NEC, NFPA or local code ordnances etc.. GFCI's are either
required in some locatiosn or they are not. Any inspector who sees it
otherwise should be reported so he can be removed from his job. The
inspector is NEVER the one who interprets the code: that's why there are
committees to decide/implement local requirements and even those must
still be done within the confines of the NEC etc. NEC, NFPA and so on
are MINIMUM requirements and often locall communities will clarify or
add to those requirements, but they cannot remove an NEC requirement
for, say, 3-prong receptacles or anything else. They can only ADD TO the
NEC per its permitted modifications statements.
Florida has a uniform building code statewide with no local
amendments. That doesn't mean you don't have different opinions about
what it says. A quick peek at the IAEI Florida yacking group and you
can see the arguments. Going to an IAEI meeting is sure to open your
eyes about how inspectors do their job. The organization tries to get
uniformity among members but there are plenty of AHJs who don't confer
with their neighbors or join the trade groups. Any builder will tell
you the rules change as you move between jurisdictions.
The inspector IS the one who interprets the code. He doesn't write it,
but it is his reading of the code that he enforces. Two inspectors in
the same city may differe significantly in what they allow or dissalow
in some particular instances.
My Dad was an electrician for many years, and he got to know what each
inspector in the area wanted to see. If he knew which inspector he was
going to be dealing with, he could be sure he was not going to get any
defects. What satisfied one would rub the other the wrong way, and
They DO, but it's not their job to. They in theory all should
inspect/pass the same things every time. They can only interpret where
the local zoning/code office has failed to clarify. Anything else and
they are deficient in their duties. They are "inspectors", not
"interpretors". They are NOT free to interpret a case that is covered
in the local code enforcement's rulings unless it is specifically
spelled out to be dependent on certain things which way accept/deny
I know they still do it, but the first one I see doing it and I know
he's wrong is in for some rude surprises.
That's "yesterday" and went on a lot. It still does to a degree but
it's a lot less than it used to be. And if it happens, the inspector
has to write up his findings and WHY his decision keeps the code. I had
a neighbor with an inspector that didn't like conduit changing to Romex
at one of the boxes; wasn't familiar with the new Romex connectors I
used and had never seen one. Since I did the wiring, I knew exactly how
it had been done. It only took one trip to the code enforcement office
to get it fixed. That's where I decided "never again under my watch".
In most cases, it is far easier and cheaper to do what they want, no matter
what the code. I'd rather spend $30 to put the two GFCI in the counter than
to piss off everyone at town hall and have to spend many times that to prove
I'm right. If you piss of the electric inspector you will probably get a
tough time from the plumbing and building inspectors too. Choose your
Fine, nothing is PERFECT. The sensing coil in the particular GFCI
unit may be slightly out of balance, so that instead of just
responding to the differential current, it responds very slightly to
the total current. Or the appliance may have a small ground fault and
have excessive leakage current. Either way, if the GFCI trips on a
repated basis, something is defective and should be replaced.
Of course. I can trip GFCI in my house with slight RFI if I want to.
We have to figure out to keep it from false tripping by design
improvement like implementing micro processor or ASIC, I mean using AI
or fuzzy logic?
If the appliance is tripping a non-defective GFCI, then it is
measurably less safe than an appliance which does not trip a GFCI. So
if the receptacle location is not required to have a GFCI under the
NEC, and you don't mind the extra safety risk, go ahead and do that.
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