Electrical wiring gone wild - not a question

So me and my wiring instructor buddy are down in the basement clipping the romex that powers the basement. I'm about to rewire the whole thing and add an additional circuit - so we shut off the breaker and clipped the wires to make demolition easier.

Anyway we get to one notorious section of my basement where the empty but powered light sockets hang down from the splice in the wire. My buddy is curious about how the splice was done, and taking a knife proceeds to unwind the electricians tape from the splice. Turns out the original installer simply stripped a section of the original hot wire of insulation - about 4 inches worth, then wound the hot wire of the socket around the bare wire - and covered it with electricians tape. The same was done with the neutral wire. Keep in mind, he didn't cut the wire, he simply removed the insulation (how I don't know). The socket wire, strand type, was only losely wound around the bare copper wire.

He did suspend the wire from the wall by using a bent finishing nail (and nicked the Romex in the process). I'll be grateful when the rewire is done, all it would take is for one spider to call that place home and that'd be all she wrote.

I guess this is why the inspection process is so important, and one of the reasons why I'm having mine inspected before closing up the wall. No need to leave the next owner a ticking time bomb.

Reply to
Eigenvector
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That was pretty common "in the day". They also used T-taps to add wires

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until you find some of those babies.

Reply to
Pat

A previous owner of my current house did some similar "quality" work. He happened to work for the electric utility too, kinda figures they wouldn't have a clue how to wire a house. I've replaced pretty much all of it along with the panels in the shop and house all with top grade materials and done properly. No inspections here though as I'm outside city limits.

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

Eigenvector spake thus:

Relax; I've seen a *lot* worse.

Like the restaurant I did some wiring for a few years ago; I discovered a circuit in the kitchen that ran directly to the service panel outside, with *no* breakers or fuses, just the service disconnect breaker.

You probably could have lived with your tapped-light socket circuit for many years with no problems.

Reply to
David Nebenzahl

I can't believe they would have endorsed something like that. Wouldn't it have been far easier to simply twist the wires together with a wire nut? Not being an electrician, that's what I would have done. If I was really concerned about it I would have taped the nut to the wire insulation to seal the connection.

Reply to
Eigenvector

I'm outside city limits too, but for me the dangers of bad electrical work are too dire to not have the inspector brought in. At least I don't have to pay for a permit - all I'm doing is updating existing circuits.

Reply to
Eigenvector

Notice in the link, from a Navy electricians manual of unknow vintage, the splice is soldered. A soldered tap splice like that was standard and safe in knob and tube wiring. Open splices were never standard with Romex. Connections, after knob and tube, had to be made in accessible boxes. Wire nuts didn't exist for knob and tube. Soldering was still used after connections were required to be in boxes.

The tap was probably made in an existing running wire where you couldn't cut the wire and just resplice it with wire nuts adding the light.

--bud--

Reply to
Bud--

Reply to
Craven Morehead

That type of junction was considered a good practice back in "the day" before standards evolved to what they are today. Back in the days of "friction tape" (anyone remember that stuff). I believe back then that cuts/splices/junctions were considered bad and should be avoided to the point possible.

The T was also used for communications lines, like phone lines, so you could work without breaking the circuit. You could wire it "hot", if need be. That's always fun.

They also used to have a "Western Union" connects for when stress or strain was going to be on a junction. Think about that one for a while.

Things like that worked really well. Here you are working on circuits that are approaching 100 years old and they are fine, the junctions are good, etc. etc. Let's hope wire nuts stand up that well.

Reply to
Pat

Maybe the guy was used to working on new construction, where this is often done for temporary lighting? Either way, it's not code.

Somewhat related but not as dangerous, I have found in my old house several instances where two switches share a wall box. It seems that it must have been common practice to take the "hot" wire, strip about

3/4" or so of insulation, and wrap it around the terminal on one switch, then terminate the end of the wire at the other switch. Not sure why this was done, perhaps large size wire nuts were not available at the time? (late 40's) apparently wire nuts were available as I have found several that appear to be original splicing the neutrals together. In cases where I have found switches arranged as I describe above, I have replaced this setup with a pigtail of new wire and a red or yellow wire nut as appropriate.

nate

Reply to
N8N

Friends home had fire, little insurance. I was demoing a wall and found a romex line running between floors joined about halfg way with a knot and wirenuts, it was hanging in the wall. no box no nothing...

yes sir short on wire just tie a knot:(

found most romex wasnt anchored to box at all, house filled with K&T some visibly singed and connecftions and solder melted. electrician had been there earlier supposedly safetied things. homeowner touched wall and sparks flew. seems someone had papered over box she had lived there for years and didnt know a box was there.someone blew in cellouse in cavities with K&T:( the list was endless..

I installed a temporary service to all 3 floors with one master light switch and plenty of outlets on 4 20 amp breakers and cut everything else clear...... I cut the wires off short so no bozo would reconnect them! homeowner kept saying well reuse this. here I will clean this box so it can be used, straighten this romex cant you use it over there?(

by this time the homeowner had fired the fire restoration copany, what a ripoff.

Homeowner had home COMPLETELY professionally it still amazes me the hoiuse fire and its 130K in damage wasnt started by wiring, a cat knocked over a lamp:(

Reply to
hallerb

N8N spake thus:

Why?

Assuming everything is in good condition--no loose insulation, loose wire strands, etc.--what's wrong with this method? I probably wouldn't use it for new wiring, but it's perfectly safe.

Reply to
David Nebenzahl

Because I am systematically going through and replacing all of the receptacles in the house, because a significant number of them don't hold a plug securely and/or show sogns of cracking or burning. I realize that has absolutely zip to do with switches, but when I explained this to She Who Must Be Obeyed, she expressed a preference for white receptacles and plates, so all of the switches are getting replaced as well. Since this is 60-year-old cloth covered wire, I figured that adding pigtails so the next time I need to poke around in that box I'm not flexing the cloth covered wiring might prevent future issues.

In SWMBO's defense, the previous devices were a schizophrenic mix of ivory and brown and nothing basically matched, and the white does look better against the walls in the house which are basically very lightly tinted pure white. (one room is pure white with a faint green tint, another is a faint blue tint, etc... I would have never thought to paint a house like this, the previous owners picked the colors and I have to say it does maintain an open, airy feel which is important with small rooms without falling into the trap of painting everything "rental white.")

nate

Reply to
N8N

Chuckle. Found one of those in the bathroom in this place when I rewired it, running to the GFCI near the sink. Butt splices, not wire nuts. Ungrounded and switched to boot. I managed to steal grounded power from a bedroom outlet in the same wall to power the GFCI, so the outlet is actually hot with the lights out now. The ungrounded string now just feeds the vanity lights, since there was no painless way to string switched power to it.

aem sends...

Reply to
<aemeijers

To me that&#39;s like saying, "nothing wrong with this car, other than the faulty brakes" Besides, 40 years is a little long to be considered temporary. But I wouldn&#39;t expect you to know the history of my house, so it&#39;s no big thing.

Reply to
Eigenvector

According to N8N :

To clarify: someone grabbed the insulation with the cutters at one point, slide the insulation down 3/4", and then stripped the end too. Giving two bare points on the wire. Right?

It&#39;s done because it reduces the number of connections, and makes the wiring in the box more compact. If you have a good stripper, it&#39;s easier than cutting pigtails, and some electricians use it routinely.

This technique is still in use, and is mentioned in Knight at least. It&#39;s called out explicitly as an alternate approach to more classic pigtails using short pieces of wire.

I use it quite frequently - it hugely simplifies multi-gang switch boxes, and is sufficiently useful to even use it for mundane things like pigtailing neutrals in mid-string receptacle boxes.

For example, a five-gang switch box with only two wirenuts - for common ground and neutral, and _none_ on the hot. Even with the ground wrapped around one box screw in each box of the gang, and the two big-multi-wire wirenuts for neutral and ground, the box will seem practically empty.

There&#39;s nothing unsafe about it. In fact, by reducing wirenuts and wire-to-wire connections, it&#39;s safer than a separate pigtail.

I&#39;m compliant with all codes on pigtails, and then some. But I don&#39;t actually _use_ short pieces of wire as pigtails.

It&#39;s described in the electrical wiring FAQ, where I called this the "mid-strip" technique.

Reply to
Chris Lewis

Ev:

Not sure how they do things in eigenspace, and tapping like this is not proper for cable, but it was really common in K & T, as are pigtail sockets like that. Odd that they stripped 4"; 1 1/2" would seem more sensible. With the wire wrapped, soldered, then taped with rubber and friction tape, K&T tap splices are very secure. That old rubber tape is particularly amusing stuff to remove, since it tends to fuse to itself in a solid lump. It looks grody put protects quite well.

There&#39;s nothing at all wrong with a properly made tap splice, pigtail splice (twisting the wires "wirenut style") or Western Union splice in copper wire, soldered, and taped properly. The trouble is that some people didn&#39;t care enough to learn the proper technique and practice good workmanship. Times change less than we think. :)

The wire was probably stripped by shaving with a knife. I sometimes wonder if this method isn&#39;t better than using a stripping tool, since it leaves only lengthwise scratches on the wire, which would not be a weak point like the ringing grooves that wire strippers or lineman&#39;s pliers can leave if used improperly. Of course, you can cut into the wire if you&#39;re careless. Some people can break a cannonball. :)

Cordially yours: G P

Reply to
pawlowsk002

N8N:

What IS it with wives and white electrical devices? But that&#39;s a debate I&#39;ll never win...I can&#39;t even convince her that the advantages of a room-light switch within reach of the bed would outweigh the negative aspects of &#39;looking like a hotel&#39;. Of course she&#39;s not the one who has to get up and switch the light off. :)

Cordially yours: G P

Reply to
pawlowsk002

Thats what X-10 controls (and follow-on products) were invented for.

Reply to
Rich Greenberg

I have a light switch by my bed (as well as at the door), using X10 modules. That was one of the FIRST things I did when moving into this house.

Reply to
Mark Lloyd

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