Electric circuits in old houses--the Random Approach

[Proctologically Violated©®]

Awl--

I got a 1920 English Tudor in Yonkers, NY. Cloth wiring, good shape/quality, soldered splices throughout (a very good thing). I also have TWENTY fused circuits in the main house. Sounds good, so far. But here's the catch: Any given fuse will control a few outlets and lights ALL OVER the house!! There is no rhyme or reason as to what fuse is controlling whatever.

Was this random/statistical approach done on purpose, sort of "averaging out" likely usage of a circuit by spreading it all over the house? Or was the installer lazy/on drugs? Inyone else have a situation like this, and if so, were you able to do anything by way of improving it? I would much like to "consolidate" circuits room by room, on a fuse/breaker. TIA.

[hallerb]

If the outlets arent grounded, I wouldnt worry about it.

You probably have Knob and tube without grounds.

If thats the case your lucky to have homeowners insurance, most companies wouldnt insure knob and tube, too many fires and troubles, after all its over a 100 years old, how long do you keep a vehicle?

I would plan a complete rewire, cause its day is coming.

A friend had knob and tube, his insurance company got sold, the new company gave him 90 days to rewire complete or no more homeowners. He objected and found no other company would insure him either, so he reluctantly rewired his entire home, it took most of his small savings he was retired.

your day is coming ................... sorry for the bad news

[Proctologically Violated©®]

Well, it's not 100 y.o. yet--Actually, it's 86 y.o. :) And no knob and tube. Actually BX cable throughout! W/ liberal use of 3-way switches, some piping to basement/sub basement areas, piping even for phone lines and an intercom!! May have been a re-wire in the 1940's, but a 1st class job.

Still, the randomness of the circuits is a pain, and is the real issue.

Don't know if my insurance co would know the diff in wiring anyway--never seemed to come up at inspection, or closing. The Home inspection was a joke, anyway, despite being done by a top co. Useless.

BTW, I keep my vehicles 'til the tranny falls off on the highway. :)

-- Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY Ever-preparing for The Grand Insertion Party Nominee, IPPVM Independent Party of the Proctologically Violated®© (M)asses "That's proly not a hemorrhoid you're feeling.... " entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie, all d'numbuhs

[Bud--]

In a thread in this news group within the last year I believe all the electricians that commented said knob and tube was not a hazard (if not abused or over fused). No specific information was presented by you (or anyone else) that K&T results in "too many fires and troubles".

Phil Munro posted 2 links with information on K&T safety:

a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had insulation added around them.

the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of Insurance by a homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was ordered to renew the policy because tne insurance company "provided no justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".

In my opinion, K&T is the latest redlining scheme by the insurance companies.

--bud--

[RBM]

As a licensed electrical contractor in Westchester county, I've never seen or heard of anyone being denied home insurance due to K&T wiring, and in my experience, I've never seen any that wasn't in excellent shape regardless or its age. Conversely, I've seen plenty of early BX cloth covered conductors in poor condition. This was often caused by light fixtures with large wattage bulbs being very close to the outlet boxes, which baked the wires. To answer your question about wiring techniques, there was no ryme or reason. You generally want to install a certain amount of outlets and lights on a circuit. Depending upon the layout of the house and ease of installation, you may wrap around a room or you may go from basement to attic and then down. Today with AFCI's and GFCI's, wiring must be done in a more structured manner.

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message news:Lcf1h.9$ [e-mail]...

[Don Phillipson]

Yes. This meant that when one fuse blew, you were likely to have light from another circuit nearby. It is the reason fuse boxes are equipped with a table, so the homeowner can write down which rooms are supplied by which circuit.

[Bra]

why?

[Pete C.]

Even beyond the knob and tube insurance issue, many companies are charging higher premiums if your electrical is older than 30-40 years. Update everything and notify your insurer and you may get a cut in your premium.

Pete C.

[Pete C.]

Yes, it is indeed a scam of sorts by the insurance companies. Depending on how well they pay off your local regulators you may or may not be able to force them to renew, at least temporarily. Doing so will not serve your interests however since they will find other excuses to raise your premiums and of course deny claims should you have any.

Ultimately you are better off updating your electrical since it will:

1. Improve safety due to grounds, GFCIs, AFCIs and load capacities that meet today's standards.

1. Improve the homes value and saleability.

2. Avoid insurance cancellation hassles.

1. Lower insurance premiums.

2. Eliminate one possible excuse for denying or shorting a claim.

Pete C.

[hallerb]

2 things try to sell a home with K&T BIG HASSLE, espically since new opwner may not be able to get homeowners insurance, or pay MUCH MORE

Statistically K&T has more fires, after all frequently its a 100 years old or more.

solder by the way can detoriate with time.

[Doug Miller]

Oh, really? Care to provide an explanation?

[Nick Hull]

I've kept them longer than that. Had the engine/transmssion fall out of a VW bus at a stop sign; I wonderer why it didn't go until a passing driver told me my engine was laying on the pavement. Jacked it back up and wired it in place and drove it home and fixed it ;)

[Proctologically Violated©®]

Yeah, but my "fuse table" is about 6 goddamm pages long!!! goodgawd.... That's why, for the poster who asked, I would like to consolidate things, but I think it's a futile task.

-- Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY Ending Corruption in Congress is the Single Best Way to Materially Improve Your Life: Stop Corruption in Congress, Send the Ultimate Message: Absolutely Vote, for *Anyone BUT* a Democrat or a Republican entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie, all d'numbuhs

[Proctologically Violated©®]

Hey, ahm in Yonkers! You're right about dried cloth at fixtures. But I am amazed at the suppleness of the cloth wiring. It is also 14 ga, I believe--wished it were 12 ga, but oh well. So I keep any room heaters on "low", and have re-wired utility rooms for things like the washer/dryer, boiler, shop spaces, A/C, etc.

I do like the soldered splices--wire nuts always gave me the willies, conduction-wise. Very well done, overall--except for that random approach business at the fuse box. Oh well....

My own personal opinion, shared by only a few electricians, is that the wire nut is the weak link in modern electrical construction, and that other than things like overloaded outlets/faulty appliances/frayed cords/improperly breakered circuits (gee, quite a list!!), that after all that, wire nuts themselves were probably the next cause of fires, electric-wise. I'm surprised the Code doesn't require solder. Would be great for Local

3... :)

If my insurance company were to give me shit, could I get a licensed electrician to write "an opinion" on the shape of my wiring, to stave off a hike? Or the ins co just don't give a damm?

[Proctologically Violated©®]

When did they start using BX cable in these here parts? Do you think as early as 1920? I would be surprised if BX was that old, but indeed, the wiring looks original, not re-wired. Or else they did one helluva a re-wire job. :)

[dpb]

Proctologically Violated=A9=AE wrote: .=2E.

.=2E.

I haven't read the entire list of replies as all (at least so far as I went) seemed to fixate on (perceived) deficiencies of K&T and subsequent dire warnings... :(

In answer to the question, this almost identical post came up only a week or so ago. The answer is, there probably was quite a bit of thought actually given to which outlets/lights to put on a given circuit and you can (and should) be thankful for the foresight. The point is that if any particular circuit trips, you will still have lights/outlets at least nearby if not actually in the same room. Consider, for example, the fuse box is in the basement and it's midnight and that is the circuit that is blown--not particularly convenient to now try to find your way there to replace the blown fuse is it? OTOH, if there's a light in the basement on another fuse/circuit...

[JoeSpareBedroom]

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message news:DTo1h.1691$ [e-mail]...

Crimped connectors are another very solid way of making splices, assuming you have a crimping tool better than the pieces of crap you see most often at Home Despot, Radio Shack, etc. This is a good source for the connectors:

Crimps are LEGAL in many locations. Where they're not, it's usually not because someone thinks they're unsafe. They just haven't gotten around to changing the rules yet.

[Bill]

An office building I worked on had separate lighting circuits and the circuits would "skip" adjoining rooms. So lighting circuit "A" would go to rooms 1, 3, 5. Lighting circuit "B" would go to rooms 2, 4, 6. Etc.

Then outlets would be on separate circuits in the same manner.

So if a room outlet had a circuit trip, there would still be lighting and power on the outlets in the room next door. Or if a lighting circuit tripped, there would be lighting in the room next door and the outlets in the room would still have power. (If someone needed to work on the lighting in a room, they could still see from the light provided by the room next door or hallway.)

Hospitals have separate circuits in the *same* room. Some outlets are on backup power in case of a power outage.

So maybe someone gave some thought to wiring things in this manner so if one circuit tripped, an outlet nearby would still work or the lighting would still work. ???

[Pete C.]

My breaker table is a CAD print of the house with each outlet and fixture indicated along with the circuit number. Far easier to make sense of quickly than a text list.

Pete C.

[Pete C.]

Bingo!

They base their decisions on what their lawyers say they can get away with, not on any objective or scientific information.

Pete C.