Electrical question - adding a neutral

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On 03/23/2013 12:53 PM, bud-- wrote:

I was apparently not paying enough attention to the P&S diagram and just trying to get my head 'round the existing wiring... you may be right. guess we'll wait and see what comes back from the OP
nate
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wrote:

You don't owe me any apology for that sketch. You have been very patient and very helpful.
Thank you.
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wrote:

I removed the hallway ceiling fixture to investigate why there were three wires going to it. The third wire (red) provides power for a closet light.
I have uploaded the latest revised wiring diagram to the following address:
http://s692.photobucket.com/user/dobripw/media/Wiring%20Schematic/Schematic-PampSRW3U600RevMar23.png.html?sort=3&o=0
It is my belief, and correct me if I'm wrong, that if I were to do the following modifications in the junction box in the hallway:
1. Remove the splice on the two red wires. 2. Connect the un-spliced red wire, going to the closet light, to the hot. 3. Connect the remaining un-spliced red wire, going to the family room, to the common.
I will have the necessary common and there would be an un-switched hot to the closet light. Most importantly I won't have to crawl around in the attic. I have my fingers crossed.
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On 3/23/2013 6:53 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:

http://s692.photobucket.com/user/dobripw/media/Wiring%20Schematic/Schematic-PampSRW3U600RevMar23.png.html?sort=3&o=0

Assuming a feed in the box, the hot leg (black) goes directly to the red wire going to the closet light and it goes to the black wire of all three motion switches. The neutral goes to the white going up to both lights and to the white wire which also gets connected to the white of all three motion switches. The yellow wires of all three motion switches gets connected to the red wire that's running between the switch boxes, and the red wire off the "master hall" motion switch gets connected to the black wire that goes to the hall light
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I wanted to thank everyone who helped me get this resolved. I was able to get the sensors functioning with the neutral from that circuit without run additional wires.
What I did was remove the splice on the two red wires in the hallway. I connected the un-spliced red wire, going to the closet light, to the hot. I connected the remaining un-spliced red wire, going to the family room, to the common.
Everything works as it should.
Thanks again!
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On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:42:15 -0500, Gordon Shumway

I looked at your picture. Is the neutral in that diagram running along with the travelers in the same cable? If not, that is a violation.
300.3(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord,...
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On Mar 22, 1:33 am, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Just out of curiousity, how does the above play with DerbyDads recent question about adding a seperate ground wire to add a ground to a run of romex that currently does not have a ground?
And even if you could add a seperate ground wire, doesn't that wire have to be protected, ie either already in a romex or else run in a conduit, etc?
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On 03/22/2013 07:57 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Ground is different as it is not normally a current-carrying conductor and therefore is considered to have zero current. Now I don't remember the details but I believe that for new construction you are still supposed to pull the ground in parallel with the other conductors but for retrofitting a ground you are allowed to get it from wherever you can
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wrote:

Correct, there is an exception for adding a ground to an ungrounded system
250.130(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following: (1)     Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50 (2)     Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor (3)     The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates (4)     For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure (5)     For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure.
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On 3/21/2013 11:33 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

It was added in 2011 (or maybe 2008).

A possibility that would make sense of how the wiring is shown is if all 4 wires of the 4-way run go to a light fixture (or other common-point box) that both 3-ways connect to. The 4 wires could also go to one of the 3-ways (but this would likely be seen in Gordon's diagram). The current sum of the 4 wires from the common box to the family room would be zero. If wired this way the 4 wires could be reconfigured to work with the sensors.
If wired that way, the 4 wires could be run under the current NEC with 2 2-wire Romexes (with conditions) under 300.3-B-3.
Otherwise I agree with everyone that the wiring violates the NEC.
What is the wiring method (Romex, EMT, ...)?
Are there other wires at the locations?
=========================I would not use the neutral of another circuit and would not recommend anyone else do it. But the minor load from the sensor would not overload either circuit or cause inductive heating. It might trip a GFCI (5mA trip). It would likely not trip an AFCI. (An AFCI also has a ground fault trip included - usually at 30mA.) It might cause a shock hazard when working on the wiring.
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snipped-for-privacy@Planet.Melmac says...

No. You risk overloading the neutral from the other circuit (and causing a fire).
Each circuit breaker measures the current on the hot (and thus neutral) for its circuit. The breaker on the "other circuit" would not be measuring the "extra" current from the other circuit. And therefore not protecting that neutral from an overcurrent situation.
Also some special breakers monitor the neutral as well as the hot. And you will have trouble if you use another circuit's neutral.
And for troubleshooting electrical problems in your house, an electrician would expect everything on each circuit to be using that circuit's neutral. So if troubleshoooting either of those circuits in the future, this sort of "hack job" could result in more time tracking down the problem and more $$ charged by the electrician.
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On Thursday 21 March 2013 16:41 Bill wrote in alt.home.repair:

Also, disconnecting one circuit feed at the breaker panel risks having the neutral going live if cross connected to another cirtcuit.
This, in addition to the above, and the fact that it trips RCDs/GFCIs is why such practise is explicity prohibited under the British regulations.
Doesn't the NEC have something to say on this?
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On 3/21/2013 4:47 PM, Tim Watts wrote:

too.
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On Thursday 21 March 2013 20:55 RBM wrote in alt.home.repair:

;->>
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On Thursday, March 21, 2013 10:09:10 AM UTC-4, Gordon Shumway wrote:

, Pass & Seymour RW3U600, require a neutral and one location has no neutral . Can I bring a neutral from a nearby receptacle that is on a different cir cuit or must the neutral be the same that is used by this lighting circuit?
Nope. Must be the same circuit.
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On 3/21/2013 10:09 AM, Gordon Shumway wrote:

About five years ago I installed a set of three way motion detector switches in a firehouse, top and bottom of a large stairway. They were made by Hubbell. I don't have the model number, but they didn't require a neutral, and have been working flawlessly.They may still make the same ones, or something similar
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Do you know if they will work with the new CFL type bulbs ? Some of the other things do not play well with the CFL bulbs.
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On 3/21/2013 4:44 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

wattage. The ones I installed are controlling two 2/32 watt fluorescent fixtures. When two bulbs in either fixture burn out, they stop working until I replace the bulbs
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It would also be interisting to know if they work with the old ballast and the newer electronic ballast as well for the long tube fluorescent lights.
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On 3/21/2013 5:01 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

magnetic ballasts originally. I converted them to 32 T8 electronic less than a year ago.
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