I removed the hallway ceiling fixture to investigate why there were
three wires going to it. The third wire (red) provides power for a
I have uploaded the latest revised wiring diagram to the following
It is my belief, and correct me if I'm wrong, that if I were to do the
following modifications in the junction box in the hallway:
1. Remove the splice on the two red wires.
2. Connect the un-spliced red wire, going to the closet light, to the
3. Connect the remaining un-spliced red wire, going to the family
room, to the common.
I will have the necessary common and there would be an un-switched hot
to the closet light. Most importantly I won't have to crawl around in
the attic. I have my fingers crossed.
Assuming a feed in the box, the hot leg (black) goes directly to the red
wire going to the closet light and it goes to the black wire of all
three motion switches. The neutral goes to the white going up to both
lights and to the white wire which also gets connected to the white of
all three motion switches. The yellow wires of all three motion switches
gets connected to the red wire that's running between the switch boxes,
and the red wire off the "master hall" motion switch gets connected to
the black wire that goes to the hall light
I wanted to thank everyone who helped me get this resolved. I was
able to get the sensors functioning with the neutral from that circuit
without run additional wires.
What I did was remove the splice on the two red wires in the hallway.
I connected the un-spliced red wire, going to the closet light, to the
hot. I connected the remaining un-spliced red wire, going to the
family room, to the common.
Everything works as it should.
On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:42:15 -0500, Gordon Shumway
I looked at your picture. Is the neutral in that diagram running along
with the travelers in the same cable? If not, that is a violation.
300.3(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the same
circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment
grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within
the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly,
trench, cable, or cord,...
On Mar 22, 1:33 am, email@example.com wrote:
Just out of curiousity, how does the above play with
DerbyDads recent question about adding a seperate
ground wire to add a ground to a run of romex that
currently does not have a ground?
And even if you could add a seperate ground wire, doesn't
that wire have to be protected, ie either already in a romex
or else run in a conduit, etc?
On 03/22/2013 07:57 AM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Ground is different as it is not normally a current-carrying conductor
and therefore is considered to have zero current. Now I don't remember
the details but I believe that for new construction you are still
supposed to pull the ground in parallel with the other conductors but
for retrofitting a ground you are allowed to get it from wherever you can
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
Correct, there is an exception for adding a ground to an ungrounded
250.130(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit
Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type
receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be
connected to any of the following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as
described in 250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure
where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit
(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within
the service equipment enclosure
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the
service equipment enclosure.
On 3/21/2013 11:33 PM, email@example.com wrote:
It was added in 2011 (or maybe 2008).
A possibility that would make sense of how the wiring is shown is if all
4 wires of the 4-way run go to a light fixture (or other common-point
box) that both 3-ways connect to. The 4 wires could also go to one of
the 3-ways (but this would likely be seen in Gordon's diagram). The
current sum of the 4 wires from the common box to the family room would
be zero. If wired this way the 4 wires could be reconfigured to work
with the sensors.
If wired that way, the 4 wires could be run under the current NEC with 2
2-wire Romexes (with conditions) under 300.3-B-3.
Otherwise I agree with everyone that the wiring violates the NEC.
What is the wiring method (Romex, EMT, ...)?
Are there other wires at the locations?
=========================I would not use the neutral of another circuit and would not recommend
anyone else do it. But the minor load from the sensor would not overload
either circuit or cause inductive heating. It might trip a GFCI (5mA
trip). It would likely not trip an AFCI. (An AFCI also has a ground
fault trip included - usually at 30mA.) It might cause a shock hazard
when working on the wiring.
No. You risk overloading the neutral from the other circuit (and causing
Each circuit breaker measures the current on the hot (and thus neutral)
for its circuit. The breaker on the "other circuit" would not be
measuring the "extra" current from the other circuit. And therefore not
protecting that neutral from an overcurrent situation.
Also some special breakers monitor the neutral as well as the hot. And
you will have trouble if you use another circuit's neutral.
And for troubleshooting electrical problems in your house, an
electrician would expect everything on each circuit to be using that
circuit's neutral. So if troubleshoooting either of those circuits in
the future, this sort of "hack job" could result in more time tracking
down the problem and more $$ charged by the electrician.
On Thursday 21 March 2013 16:41 Bill wrote in alt.home.repair:
Also, disconnecting one circuit feed at the breaker panel risks having the
neutral going live if cross connected to another cirtcuit.
This, in addition to the above, and the fact that it trips RCDs/GFCIs is why
such practise is explicity prohibited under the British regulations.
Doesn't the NEC have something to say on this?
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/
http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage
On Thursday, March 21, 2013 10:09:10 AM UTC-4, Gordon Shumway wrote:
, Pass & Seymour RW3U600, require a neutral and one location has no neutral
. Can I bring a neutral from a nearby receptacle that is on a different cir
cuit or must the neutral be the same that is used by this lighting circuit?
Nope. Must be the same circuit.
About five years ago I installed a set of three way motion detector
switches in a firehouse, top and bottom of a large stairway. They were
made by Hubbell. I don't have the model number, but they didn't require
a neutral, and have been working flawlessly.They may still make the same
ones, or something similar
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