Electric Range/Oven wiring questions

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'RBM[_2_ Wrote: > ;3075115']

Here ya go, RBM:
This GE range has a convenience outlet:
http://tinyurl.com/k9qjjel
GE airbrushes the convenience outlet out of the picture to make you think it doesn't have one, but if you look in the "Features" section on the specification table, it clearly says "Outlets = 1".
That means that range has one convenience outlet, even though it's invisible to the naked eye in the picture.
--
nestork


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On 6/7/2013 7:06 PM, nestork wrote:

in a dozen different models. I don't think outlets on ranges are typical anymore. Possibly on the low end stuff like the one in your picture, maybe .
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'RBM[_2_ Wrote: > ;3075171']

I would not say that, Mr. RBM.
--
nestork


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On 6/7/2013 11:49 PM, nestork wrote:

ranges are pretty standard, and the better models have two outlets. I on the other hand, haven't seen outlets on ranges in quite a long time. I'm sure you can still find a few, but by and large, I think they are a thing of the past, in fact I was just at Home Depot this afternoon and took a look at their free standing ranges. They had 17 models on display, none of which had outlets on them.
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I can think of a couple of reasons why:
A - An outlet on a range sounds like a safety issue. The cord could very easily come in contact with the heating element/burner melting the insulation.
B - With the exception of using perhaps an immersion blender, what would you want to plug in and use at the range anyway?
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On 6/9/2013 8:48 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

bacon. I think those were from a time when there weren't modern counter top outlet requirements. I would be surprised if their disappearance wasn't a matter of safety/liability as well.
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The debate does have me curious though. Next time I'm in a store that sells appliances I'm going to take a look.
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You missed the main reason. They can save a dollar or two by not putting one on the stove.
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Ralph Mowery;3075773 Wrote:

Yes, they can save $2 by not having to install a convenience outlet or another fuse holder.
But, they can sell more stoves if their stoves have a convenience outlets. And, my guess is that it's NOT a wash. Stove manufacturers make a lot more than $2 profit on each stove they sell, and so the more stoves they sell, even ones equipped with convenience outlets, the more profit they make.
In my mother's case, she has her microwave oven plugged into one of her stove's convenience outlets and a toaster plugged into the other.
New homes have more electrical outlets in the kitchens, AND they're rated at 20 amps each. But, look at the huge number of older homes built in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's that will typically only have one electrical outlet in the kitchen rated at 15 amps. That's cuz back in the 50's and 60's, microwave ovens (aka: "radar ranges") were the size of a small fridge and cost $1500. Nowadays, they're small enough to fit on any counter top, cost $49 at Walmart, and everyone has one. People with those homes WANT additional electrical outlets in their kitchens for the convenience of being able to use more than one small appliance at the same time, and a convenience outlet on their stove is an important feature in their eyes.
This thread is stupid. If convenience outlets on stoves were a desireable feature in the past, why wouldn't they be a desireable feature now? What could get into an appliance manufacturer's head to make him decide people don't need or want them any more? If a house has 6 duplex receptacles over it's kitchen counter top, sure, another one on the stove isn't needed. But, what about all the houses out there with only one duplex receptacle over the kitchen counter top and another one behind the fridge? For the $2 each they cost to provide, why NOT provide them on a stove for those that want them? The stove is gonna sell for $600 to $1600, so it's not like it's going to affect the profitability of making and selling stoves.
I once went into a hardware store wanting to buy a 7/16ths inch drill bit. They didn't have one. The guy working there told me "There's no demand for them any more. Nowadays, everyone drills 3/8 or 1/2 inch holes. No one drills 7/16ths inch holes anymore." I didn't argue with the guy. How can you lock horns with insanity and remain sane yourself.
--
nestork

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I agree that I don't think cost savings is the main reason. That hardly seems the reason to not have one on a $1000 or $2000 range full of all kinds of optional stuff. If anything, the only place one seems to have been found in this thread is on a lower end GE stove.

I hope it's rated for all that.

They sure weren't building houses here in the USA with only one outlet in a kitchen in the 70s and 80s. Even in the houses I grew up in that were built in the early 50s, there were a couple of outlets over the countertops. There would be a counter to the left of the sink, one to the right and one outlet on each of those sections. One house also had a small island that divided the kitchen from an eat in kitchen. There was an outlet on the wall over the island. That's where we kept the toaster.

They may still be desirable for some people. I just think how much they matter has diminished because as RBM pointed out, there are a lot more outlets in a typical kitchen today. Even houses from the 50s and 60s, a hell of a lot of them have been renovated and made more modern. And as I previously pointed out, I think an outlet on the back control panel of a stove is a bad idea from a safety standpoint. It's also puts one more hard to clean thing in a spot where it's going to get stuff on it.
 >What could get into an

See the safety issue. Also, I would expect they do focus groups and such to get feedback as to what features people want. They see what sells, what doesn't sell. It could also be that people want sleek looking ranges and an outlet makes it look like a throwback to the 60s and perhaps less desirable than one without it?

Personally, I've never seen that in the USA.

Well, I guess that money does add up at some point. If the cost is $2, then that's maybe $7 at retail. For cheap stoves, that could be a factor. And for a $1500 stove, maybe adding an outlet makes it look like a throwback to the 60s and consumers less likely to buy it? Who knows.

That sounds like the village idiots that work in the local ACE Hardware here. Soon as you walk in the door, they descend on you. And instead of being helpful, they just waste your time with stupid questions. My all time favorite was the time I went looking for water pressure gauge. The guy didn't have one, but gave me a lesson on how home water system pressure is about 2 PSI......
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On 6/9/2013 9:32 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

Most electrical and building codes call for GFI outlets in a kitchen, especially near a sink. My stove is quite near our sink and if it was an old electric stove with 120 volt convenience outlets there would be no protection from electric shocks. I suppose the new electric stove manufacturers no longer include convenience outlets because they have no control over how their stoves are installed and even if GFI outlets were part of the stove, there is no guarantee that their stoves would always be properly grounded. The corporate risk lawyers may have more to do with the decision to leave off the convenience outlets than the corporate bean counters. o_O
TDD
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On 6/9/2013 4:10 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

you wouldn't be able to have a gf outlet on a range fed from a 3 wire feeder
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On 6/9/2013 3:27 PM, RBM wrote:

That's exactly what I thought. The legal system would probably nail the stove manufacturer even though their installation instructions called for a four wire feed. I posted in the "locked meter" thread about idiots making illegal electrical hookups and the danger involved because there will always be someone, sometime, somewhere doing something extremely stupid involving electrical power. It's called "The Dumassification Of America". Something that has caused more mayhem and death that any other tragedy that has befallen our country. o_O
TDD
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Are you sure ? It may not protect exectally correctly, but you should be able to wire it up.
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On 6/9/2013 6:16 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

connected to the frame of the range I think you'd have issues
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On 6/9/2013 5:23 PM, RBM wrote:

If he doesn't believe it, all he has to do is go to a GFCI outlet and take a paperclip or piece of wire then short the neutral to ground. If the GFCI outlet is working, it will trip when the wide slot is shorted to the ground. ^_^
TDD
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On 6/9/2013 7:03 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

This ground/neutral connection would be made on the line side. I'm sure a GFCI tester would read "miswire", but I'm not sure that it wouldn't still function. Next time I install a GFCI receptacle I'll connect the neutral to the ground and neutral and see what happens.
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The neutral and the ground have to be separated on the DOWNSIDE of the GFCI, ie on anything plugged into it or anything wired to it that it protects downstream. In the case of a GFCI in a stove on the 120V outlet, it should work. The GFCI is looking for the current in the hot of the load to be equal to the current in the neutral. With a coffee pot plugged in that is working correctly, they will be equal, it won't trip. With a bad coffee pot with a short to ground, it will trip.
So, unless I'm missing something, I don't see why it would not work.
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On 6/9/2013 8:51 PM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

conductor connected to both neutral and ground on the device, otherwise people could easily fake a non grounded outlet. Since I've never tried it, I'm not sure that the receptacle would know or care. I will test this shortly.
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As the neutral and ground are connected together at the breaker box I don't see how a simple tester can tell if one wire is ran and connected to the ground and neuteral at the receptical. Or for that mater if they are reversed or shorted to each other anywhere along the way.
They could be faked that way and without actually looking, the simple tester would miss that. Same as if they are reversed.
I could be missing something here as I worked mainly in an industrial enviroment and did very little with the 120 volt wiring, and even less with GFCI circuits.
I will not dispute the GFCI may not work as desired if hooked up wrong, but it will not trip if the load is ok.
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