Here ya go, RBM:
This GE range has a convenience outlet:
GE airbrushes the convenience outlet out of the picture to make you
think it doesn't have one, but if you look in the "Features" section on
the specification table, it clearly says "Outlets = 1".
That means that range has one convenience outlet, even though it's
invisible to the naked eye in the picture.
ranges are pretty standard, and the better models have two outlets.
I on the other hand, haven't seen outlets on ranges in quite a long
time. I'm sure you can still find a few, but by and large, I think they
are a thing of the past, in fact I was just at Home Depot this afternoon
and took a look at their free standing ranges. They had 17 models on
display, none of which had outlets on them.
I can think of a couple of reasons why:
A - An outlet on a range sounds like a safety issue. The cord
could very easily come in contact with the heating element/burner
melting the insulation.
B - With the exception of using perhaps an immersion blender,
what would you want to plug in and use at the range anyway?
Yes, they can save $2 by not having to install a convenience outlet or
another fuse holder.
But, they can sell more stoves if their stoves have a convenience
outlets. And, my guess is that it's NOT a wash. Stove manufacturers
make a lot more than $2 profit on each stove they sell, and so the more
stoves they sell, even ones equipped with convenience outlets, the more
profit they make.
In my mother's case, she has her microwave oven plugged into one of her
stove's convenience outlets and a toaster plugged into the other.
New homes have more electrical outlets in the kitchens, AND they're
rated at 20 amps each. But, look at the huge number of older homes
built in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's that will typically only
have one electrical outlet in the kitchen rated at 15 amps. That's cuz
back in the 50's and 60's, microwave ovens (aka: "radar ranges") were
the size of a small fridge and cost $1500. Nowadays, they're small
enough to fit on any counter top, cost $49 at Walmart, and everyone has
one. People with those homes WANT additional electrical outlets in
their kitchens for the convenience of being able to use more than one
small appliance at the same time, and a convenience outlet on their
stove is an important feature in their eyes.
This thread is stupid.
If convenience outlets on stoves were a desireable feature in the past,
why wouldn't they be a desireable feature now? What could get into an
appliance manufacturer's head to make him decide people don't need or
want them any more? If a house has 6 duplex receptacles over it's
kitchen counter top, sure, another one on the stove isn't needed. But,
what about all the houses out there with only one duplex receptacle over
the kitchen counter top and another one behind the fridge? For the $2
each they cost to provide, why NOT provide them on a stove for those
that want them? The stove is gonna sell for $600 to $1600, so it's not
like it's going to affect the profitability of making and selling
I once went into a hardware store wanting to buy a 7/16ths inch drill
bit. They didn't have one. The guy working there told me "There's no
demand for them any more. Nowadays, everyone drills 3/8 or 1/2 inch
holes. No one drills 7/16ths inch holes anymore." I didn't argue with
the guy. How can you lock horns with insanity and remain sane yourself.
I agree that I don't think cost savings is the main reason.
That hardly seems the reason to not have one on a $1000 or $2000
range full of all kinds of optional stuff. If anything, the only
seems to have been found in this thread is on a lower end GE stove.
I hope it's rated for all that.
They sure weren't building houses here in the USA with only
one outlet in a kitchen in the 70s and 80s. Even in the
houses I grew up in that were built in the early 50s, there
were a couple of outlets over the countertops. There would
be a counter to the left of the sink, one to the right and one outlet
on each of those sections. One house also had a small island
that divided the kitchen from an eat in kitchen. There was an
outlet on the wall over the island. That's where we kept the
They may still be desirable for some people. I just think how much
they matter has diminished because as RBM pointed out, there
are a lot more outlets in a typical kitchen today. Even houses from
the 50s and 60s, a hell of a lot of them have been renovated and
made more modern. And as I previously pointed out, I think an
outlet on the back control panel of a stove is a bad idea from a
safety standpoint. It's also puts one more hard to clean thing
in a spot where it's going to get stuff on it.
>What could get into an
See the safety issue. Also, I would expect they do focus
groups and such to get feedback as to what features people
want. They see what sells, what doesn't sell. It could also
be that people want sleek looking ranges and an outlet makes
it look like a throwback to the 60s and perhaps less desirable
than one without it?
Personally, I've never seen that in the USA.
Well, I guess that money does add up at some point. If the cost is
$2, then that's maybe $7 at retail. For cheap stoves, that could be
a factor. And for a $1500 stove, maybe adding an outlet makes it
look like a throwback to the 60s and consumers less likely to buy it?
That sounds like the village idiots that work in the local ACE
here. Soon as you walk in the door, they descend on you. And instead
of being helpful, they just waste your time with stupid questions. My
all time favorite was the time I went looking for water pressure
The guy didn't have one, but gave me a lesson on how home water
system pressure is about 2 PSI......
Most electrical and building codes call for GFI outlets in a kitchen,
especially near a sink. My stove is quite near our sink and if it was
an old electric stove with 120 volt convenience outlets there would be
no protection from electric shocks. I suppose the new electric stove
manufacturers no longer include convenience outlets because they have
no control over how their stoves are installed and even if GFI outlets
were part of the stove, there is no guarantee that their stoves would
always be properly grounded. The corporate risk lawyers may have more to
do with the decision to leave off the convenience outlets than the
corporate bean counters. o_O
That's exactly what I thought. The legal system would probably nail the
stove manufacturer even though their installation instructions called
for a four wire feed. I posted in the "locked meter" thread about idiots
making illegal electrical hookups and the danger involved because there
will always be someone, sometime, somewhere doing something extremely
stupid involving electrical power. It's called "The Dumassification Of
America". Something that has caused more mayhem and death that any other
tragedy that has befallen our country. o_O
If he doesn't believe it, all he has to do is go to a GFCI outlet and
take a paperclip or piece of wire then short the neutral to ground. If
the GFCI outlet is working, it will trip when the wide slot is shorted
to the ground. ^_^
This ground/neutral connection would be made on the line side. I'm sure
a GFCI tester would read "miswire", but I'm not sure that it wouldn't
Next time I install a GFCI receptacle I'll connect the neutral to the
ground and neutral and see what happens.
The neutral and the ground have to be separated on the DOWNSIDE
of the GFCI, ie on anything plugged into it or anything wired to it
it protects downstream. In the case of a GFCI in a stove on the 120V
outlet, it should work. The GFCI is looking for the current in the
of the load to be equal to the current in the neutral. With a coffee
plugged in that is working correctly, they will be equal, it won't
With a bad coffee pot with a short to ground, it will trip.
So, unless I'm missing something, I don't see why it would not
On 6/9/2013 8:51 PM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
conductor connected to both neutral and ground on the device, otherwise
people could easily fake a non grounded outlet. Since I've never tried
it, I'm not sure that the receptacle would know or care. I will test
As the neutral and ground are connected together at the breaker box I don't
see how a simple tester can tell if one wire is ran and connected to the
ground and neuteral at the receptical. Or for that mater if they are
reversed or shorted to each other anywhere along the way.
They could be faked that way and without actually looking, the simple tester
would miss that. Same as if they are reversed.
I could be missing something here as I worked mainly in an industrial
enviroment and did very little with the 120 volt wiring, and even less with
I will not dispute the GFCI may not work as desired if hooked up wrong, but
it will not trip if the load is ok.
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