Since the GFCI looks for an unbalance betwee the current going out on
the hot lead and the current coming back on the neutral/ ground, if
the hot lead going to an appliance should somehow short to the stove
body or the kitchen faucet, or something, there will be an unbalance
and the GFCI should trip.
On 6/9/2013 8:48 AM, email@example.com wrote:
A couple of weekends ago we had overnight guests. On Saturday morning
SWMBO was using most of the main counter making batter for pancakes and
waffles. A stand mixer, a hand mixer, bowls, ingredients, etc.
I pulled out the waffle iron and stood there looking for a place to set
it up and start cooking. Ah, look there next to the range. Look at the
empty counter space. Too bad the only outlet on that wall is the one
behind the refrigerator. It sure would have been convenient to have a
convenience outlet on the range so I didn't annoy the missus by crowding
into her prep space.
That same next-to-the-range counter space would be a convenient place to
put the bread maker and my cooks-to-slow slow cooker during the
occasional times that I pull them out of storage.
As I said earlier in this thread, the duct work for the second floor
runs up the wall behind the range, specifically where the open counter
space is between the range and the fridge. I'd love to add an outlet,
but it would have to be a surface mount and I find them extremely
If my range had a convenience outlet, it would certainly see its share
I just got back from my local Home Depot not more than 15 minutes ago.
I did check out their stoves, and MOST of them had one convenience
outlet. However, all the stoves with convenience outlets had them
located on the TOP of the console, either on the left side or the right
side; not at the front on the panel between the console and the cooktop
where they were most commonly found years ago.
There were lots of stoves that didn't have any convenience outlets, but
most had one. I didn't see any that had two.
But, when I asked the salesman at Home Depot "Do you have any electric
ranges WITHOUT a convenience outlet?" His response to me was "Why would
it be important to you NOT to have an extra plug-in on your stove?", and
I thought "Exactly!". For the $2 the darn thing costs the manufacturer
to provide, why NOT put two of them on every stove? How many things can
you think of in a kitchen that need to be plugged in? Microwave oven,
toaster, coffee maker, electric kettle, electric frying pan, electric
can opener, coffee maker, food processor, slow cooker, coffee maker,
etc. You simply can't have too many electric outlets in a kitchen.
Anyhow, Mr. RBM:
Could you pease give us the phone number of that Home Depot store?
I have a long distance calling card that allows me to phone anywhere in
Canada or the USA for 4.3 cents per minute, and it's worth 4.3 cents to
me to confirm that what you're saying is true.
The Home Depot store here in Winnipeg is the one near Polo Park shopping
center and their phone number is (204) 779-0703.
It is sounding like a Canadian thing to me.
In the US an electric range receptacle would probably not have to be
GFCI protected (not countertop). But would you want an accessible
kitchen receptacle without GFCI protection (and in a grounded appliance)?
You could add GFCI protection at the range, but that costs more than $2.
An ordinary receptacle on the range has to have a fuse or circuit
breaker. Where do they put that?
The common 3 lite outlet testers don't have a clue if there is both a
real neutral and ground. Ground connected to a neutral shows up as good.
They also will show a rather high resistance (ineffective) ground
connection as good. I have a tester that will detect improper ground
connections, but it puts a test current on the ground and looks at the
The feature on a GFCI that detects a downstream N-G connection is
interesting. If there is a N-G connection and you have current on the
neutral conductor, the alternate path on the ground wire will trip the
GFCI. The 'feature' will trip the GFCI with no current. It is done with
a current transformer around the H and N that tries to push current
downstream. If there is a N-G connection enough current is pushed to
trip the GFCI. Also works if the GFCI is reverse wired H-N. If the H
(which is wired as a N) is connected to G it will trip the GFCI.
Yeah, I tested one today to see what would happen with various wiring
scenarios. Clearly, the yellow plug in testers are very dumb. The ground
fault can be connected to a hot leg and anything that creates a return
path to the neutral buss, and work
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 05:29:01 -0700 (PDT), firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
I would think that it depends on whether the controls are along the front,
or across the back.
My 1987 gas range with an OTR microwave has the controls along the front.
It has a clock, timer, oven light, etc. No receptacle.
Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).
Yeah, but it would be even more convenient if you had the currently
required counter outlets. My guess is that most people today have
adequate counter outlets to the degree that the range manufacturers
don't find the desire to have them anymore.
Through the upgrades that I've done to the main counter area, I believe
that I have all of the required counter outlets in that area.
On the wall where the range and fridge are, there was no counter top
when I moved in, just empty space between the two appliances where the
former owners kept their garbage can. I built an 18" base cabinet to
hold the garbage can and to provide a little counter space next to the
range. The range that was there at the time had a convenience outlet, so
I didn't need to add an outlet above the counter. My new range doesn't
have one, so now I'm without power for that counter. If you add a 18"
base cabinet as I did, are you required to add an outlet above it?
Why the former owners chose to live for 30 years without counter space
next to their range is beyond me. I built the cabinet within weeks of
moving in. Of course, that same family chose to look down over the
backyard from 2 side by side double hung windows, requiring them to walk
to front of the house and then around the back to access the yard. The
first summer I was in the house I replaced the windows with a sliding
glass door, built a deck and stairs down to the yard. 30 years later, I
still thank myself for building the deck.
In my opinion, you do what you need, it's your house.
The Nec however requires an outlet at any kitchen counter space 12" or
larger, and no point along a counter space can you be more than 24" from
What does "at counter space mean"? If a standard height outlet (~12" to
center) behind the fridge is less than 24” from the counter top does that
meet code or does the outlet need to be above the counter and/or accessible
from the counter?
I'm guessing it has to be above the counter.
BTW...Mine isn't within 24”...I'm just curious.
It means above the counter top, but no more than 20" above it. It has to
be accessible so one behind the refrigerator doesn't count. Even if you
have one of these enclosures built on the counter top for something like
a toaster, which has an outlet inside it,they call them garage doors,
they too don't meet the requirement. If you have a piece of unbroken
counter space 4' 1", you would need two receptacles
According to page 16 of this manual, the convenience outlet is located on
the top of backguard so it might just be hard to see in the pictures.
However, it's interesting that GE doesn't list that model number on its
website. I wonder if it's discontinued but still available in stores.
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