Dumb question about copper piping

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

With the first freeze of the year last night, I crawled under the house to shut off the water to the back deck and blow out the line with some compressed air. Imagine my disgust when I discovered the plumber had installed the quarter turn valve with the access port to the inside of the house rather than outboard of the other seat/stem type valve. In other words, introducing compressed air to the valve would blow the water inside the house up until that point rather than the water from that point outside.

So what to do? I cut the line with a tubing cutter and was going to solder in another ported quarter turn valve... only this time to the outside of the water line shutoff. When I tried to fit the valve on the now open piping, no amount of stuffing and grunting would get the job done. A visit to the local borg revealed plenty of 1/2" fittings, only they would fit the thinner M type piping. I assume I've got L tubing which is just a little thicker.

Where do I get valves that would fit? Or should I find some sort of reducer (seems like more work than I want to do)? And why don't the borgs sell valves that fit the tubing they sell? They've got both kinds of tubing but just the smaller diameter valves. The immediate problem is solved: I blew out the line under the deck after I cut it under the house. But I won't have more water out there until I repair this.

Gents?

[Anonymous]

[EXT]

Type M and Type L have the same outside diameter, just the wall thickness changes. I have never seen a valve or fitting with a smaller diameter unless it is intended for pipe other than standard nominal 1/2 copper tubing.

[dpb]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote: ...

...

K, L and M are same OD, extra wall thickness comes from ID, not OD.

You have either a non-standard tubing or fittings if they don't fit. A "real" plumbing supply should be able to supply what you need.

--

[DanG]

I suspect that your copper is out-of-round. It may have happened when you were using the cutter, especially if it does not have a good cutting wheel.

[trader4]

Agree with the above. Also these things are usually plumbed so the pipe goes slightly uphill going outside. That way there is no need for compressed air. You just close the basement valve, open the bleed port and open the outside faucet.

[Dave Martindale]

I'd like to know how a plumber, who ought to have some idea what they're doing, manages to install something like this backward in the first place.

I had a similar situation: the main water supply for the house enters under the entrance doorway (the door is half a flight above the basement), then there's a tee that feeds the outside faucets before the water passes through the pressure regulator. There's a shutoff valve for the outside faucets, and the valve has a little capped drain port. The drain port is *supposed* to be downstream, so once the valve has been shut off, you can drain the water from the lines. But the valve was in backwards, and when I removed the cap from the "drain" port, I suddenly had 60 PSI water spraying out instead of the gentle drain flow I expected. Stupid.

I removed it and installed a new valve with the drain on the downstream side. This was complicated by the output line being polybutylene, which I can't get fittings for any more, so I had to cut the PB short, install a few inches of PEX with a PB-to-PEX adapter, and then use a PEX fitting on the valve. The supply-side plumbing is all copper, which unsoldered and went back together fine.

Dave

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

I've got a little update but the solution isn't in place just yet: I was made aware at a plumber's supply house today that there does exist such a beast as

5/8" tubing. "Of course, nobody would use that because it costs about twice as much. That's getting into refrigeration stuff."

Well, I went home and got on the internet and sure enough, I found a description of 5/8" copper tubing where it said it was used (among other spots) for hot tubs. Well, my line is to be found right in front of the hot tub which is just to the side of where I come into the crawl space. The hot tub is cut into the floor of the bathroom directly above and I have access to the filter, etc where I come in. So having that line there seems reasonable.... even if it "costs twice as much".

So it seems what I need to extract myself from this mess is a pair of 5/8" to

1/2" copper reducers. I can then solder in the ball valve I already paid for and the problem is solved. At least that's how I hope things will go. I won't know until I lay my hands on those reducers and see if they will fit the tubing already out there.

Film at 11....

[EXT]

The outside diameter of 1/2" copper tube is 5/8". The outside diameter of

5/8" tubing is probably 3/4" or close to it. The inside diameter of 3/4" tubing is nominally 3/4", depending on wall thickness. See if you can fit a 3/4" coupling with a stub of 3/4" pipe in it, over the outside of the 5/8" tube. You may be able to jury rig an arrangement by fitting pieces together. Try fitting pieces together in the big box store to see how you can do it, be creative, it may save you some money over special ordering the 5/8" fittings. You may have to try some pieces of different wall thicknesses to see what fits over the 5/8" tube without too much gap that could cause soldering problems.

Other than the above you may need to locate a refrigeration supply outfit to get the parts.

[Chris Lewis]

The main feed to my Dad's house (built around 1970) is 5/8". The tubing is the size as the female side of a normal 1/2" copper coupler.

I _believe_ you can solder 1/2" pipe _inside_ the 5/8" pipe.

In other words, the adapters you need are just two short lengths of 1/2" copper. Check it out.

[lp13-30]

The most important thing to remember when buying tubing is that the inside diameter must not be greater than the outside diameter, otherwise the hole will be on the outside of the pipe. Seriously though, I have stuck 5/8 ref (1/2 plumbing) copper into 3/4 ref. tubing and soldered the joint with no problem at all. Also put 7/8 ref (3/4 pl) over 3/4 ref and done the same thing. It is done all the time in A/C. About a year ago we had an idiot helper slice through a 1/2" water line(what we call

5/8) with a sawzall. He mangled up about 4-6 " of the pipe. and besides being nearly impossible to get to (I was the only one who could squeeze into the space) the pipe would not move at all in any direction. I just cut a piece of 3/4 ref about 4" longer than the gap in the line, managed to get it on like a giant repair coupling, and soldered it up. Worked fine. HOWEVER, I only use silver solder on copper tubing regardless of it's use, so ymmv using soft solder, but the tubing fits into the larger one tightly, so there should not really be any/much difference between that and using a coupling or other fitting. Good luck Larry

[Stormin Mormon]

Wonder if he could have inflated the house water system to 150 PSI or so, and then open the valve to the outside -- blow the water out that way.

Or, blow it out with the valve open, and then close the valve later. See how much less work?

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

That is an interesting thought. I'll crawl up under there in the morning. Whatever I end up doing, I'll post the fix.

[chriatianmaker]

These days, many of these generation X plumbers are alcoholics or drug addicts. You know that whole generation is just a bunch of lazy good for nothing bums, so this comes as no surprise at all. Thats why when I have any work done on my home, I either do it myself or when I contact a company, I tell them outright that I will not allow anyone under the age of 40 to even enter my home with a tool.

[DerbyDad03]

re: I will not allow anyone under the age of 40 to even enter my home with a tool

Good thinking...because we all know there no alcoholics or drug addicts over the age of 40.

[dpb]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote: ...

...

Actually, you should be glad the original plumber turned the valve around wrong so you went in to fix it... :)

Think how much more of a pita this would be if it were mid-February after the next hard freeze actually broke this line and you were being forced to repair the damage then...

While you're at it, would be good time to ensure there aren't other places w/ exposed piping, etc., that need attention.

--

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

This is getting expensive and I'm getting depressed. I bought a new tubing cutter on the off chance the little tiny one I had was messing things up. Today I crawled under the house and determined I would not get this fixed easily. I took a small sample of the cut off line with me and went in search of refrigeration fittings. A kind soul there told me that it looked as if my tubing had frozen at some point in the past and there was no longer any way I would get it back to specs. He suggested I swage (sp?) the tubing to the next larger size and then solder in the next larger reducer. So I bought a swager (sp?) and crawled back under the house with it. Of course, you have to beat the everliving shit out of it and there's no way to secure it while you're beating. So I have the tubing in one hand and a hand held sledge in the other... on my back and beating on something with my arms stretched out and my neck off the ground.

Well, I broke a good sweat. Broke the pipe too. Just beyond the expanded area the tubing has a small fissure where none existed before.

It looks like what's going to have to happen is to turn off all the water for the whole house, all the old tubing needs to come down, and then resolder new tubing with two new valves... the outboard one having the dump port. Then I'm going to insulate the tubing.

Talk about a PITA. Time for a drink... the sun must be going down somewhere on earth.