Thanks. These are pretty good too. This raises a question I should have asked 25 years ago, or maybe I did and I've forgotten: "Ensure that the barbed side of the locknut is in contact with the metal of the enclosure"
Is the barbed side the top of the locknut's "dome" or the bottom of the dome where it's widest?
You don't get much leeway in a Windows countract.
Microsoft thinks it's king!
The barbed side bites into the cabinet keeping it tight and providing for a case ground but the surge arrester case is usually plastic so it doesn't matter. With metal parts you want the teeth digging into the metal. Some lock nuts have serrations on both the wide and narrow side and installing one wide side up can make it easier to tighten it by putting the blade of a flat tipped screwdriver against a lug and tapping the end of the screwdriver handle with lineman's pliers.
TDD
Thanks. I looked at that Square-D SDSA1175 and I see I could use two of them on the two legs in my breaker box. That's a reasonable idea, right?
To know when they need replacement, I have to look at the LEDs once in a while, right? No other sign>? (not counting the trees knocked down by lightning)
You can get an Intermatic whole house surge protector for about $100.
Your choice, depending on how much margin you want. You connect it to the panel using an ordinary double pole breaker, 20 or 30 amp. Because they are made to connect to conduit, that is how I'd connect it, either rigid or flex.
Perhaps even on a home repair group I need to specity "windows/doors"????
Supposedly is the key word here. According to whom, exactly is an
80% efficiency furnace suddenly 85% efficient, depending on how it's installed or used? I'd like to see a furnace manufacturer that specs it. I've looked at several different manufacturer's product lines and have seen no such distinctions. Just because some installer told you that and you believe it, doesn't make it true. I showed you a research report that says essentially, according to the DOE test procedures, you get a theoretical 3% advantage with 2 stage but that it's due to the test methodology. With the new proposed test methodology, you get basicly zippo.Yes, I know how you talk about the miracle energy savings of that ECM blower. Which is why I was surprised that you'd buy an 80% furnace. I didn't know you actually had one.
Lets look at :
A - An 80%, two stage furnace, with ECM blower
B - A 93 or 95% efficiency, two stage furnace, with ECM blower
The cost difference is a few hunderd bucks. The essential difference is the addition of another heat exchanger and a draft inducer. And I don't know what's going on in Canada, but in the USA in many locations, today you can get utility rebates that at least eliminate that differential, if not more. If you bought it here last year, you'd get a 30% federal tax credit on the cost of the 95% furnace, including installation. If you bought the 80%, you'd get zippo.
It's also interesting how you draw lines in the sand about what constitutes acceptable tradeoffs. Apparently you have no problem with the increased cost, potential failure rate, potential increased service costs, for that ECM blower. Yet for some reason, an additional heat exchanger and small draft inducer blower, which can get you 19% more heat out for every dollar you put in, is unacceptable. And that efficiency is documented by the manufacturer. It's right in the data sheet, as opposed to the increase efficiency you "supposedly" get from two stage, which BTW, has it's own increased complexity issues.
Also regarding two stages, I can show you people that say they should NOT be used in large homes, because the blower runs so slow on first stage that it can be incapable of getting air to all parts of the house. So, while it might work great in your small house, it might not work so well in a 3000 sqft two story house. I looked into that a bit and it was interesting. The speeds that those blowers will run at when on first stage varies greatly from one manfacturer to another. With some, you can select it within a couple of choices, some are fixed.
Lets' take a 2000 CFM max air handler. On some furnaces it might run at 1600 for heat full output and 1300 for first stage. Another it could be 1600 for heat full output and 800 for first stage. That lower speed is for guys like you who want to run the blower 24/7 and are impressed with the low energy usage rate they can then quote on the spec sheet. But, if you have a large house, that speed might not get hot air to where it needs to go. And if you buy the wrong furnace, where you can't change it, you're screwed.
Then that is a problem with the furnace selection upon installation. You can just as easily oversize a two stage furnace for a house as you can a singe stage.
Which says nothing about efficiency of a two stage furnace vs a single stage furnace in a typical house, assuming both are correctly sized for the house.
My comments were based on making that decision today, upon which I thought the discussion thread was basicly centered. I don't know about what cost differentials were back then, but I'd suspect that it still would have been better to get a 93 or 95% furnace, instead of an 80% one.
And i base the savings of an 95% furnace to those of an 80% furnace on the figures that are right in the data sheet for the furnace. Put $1 of gas into the 95% furnace and you get 95cents worth of heat out of the furnace. Put $1 of gas in the 80%, and you get 80 cents out.
From everything I've read around here, I doubt you'll get 24 years out of a furnace installed 8 years ago. Haven't you seen people here talking about how all newer furnaces are not lasting as long as older one?Those 24 year numbers were achieved with furnaces from the 70's and 80's. Today, from everything I've seen, 15 years is more typical, even if you have a single stage, 80%. Like so many things, they just are not built to last as long.
Me and my friends who service HVAC systems don't usually fiddle with the main power for the home so we recommend that the customer get the surge suppressor that the power company installs behind the power meter. We install the separate secondary suppressors on the HVAC equipment itself. The power company will guarantee their power supply in case of damage. Bigger pockets prevail in those situations. :-)
TDD
It's better not to go looking for trouble. You start out responsible for the AC, and you don't need responsibilty for the whole house.
Let me see what they say.
Easy to find, with BGE surge suppressor :
With SurgeGuard® your appliances and electronics are protected!
The low monthly rate is 8 dollars plus tax, which is low for some, but I see it as 96 dollars a year every year,and there's a 150 dollar removal charge for cancelling in the first year.
Plus everything I have is old, so I won't even collect much. I want this to save myself the headache of replacing things, plus I like everything I own. It's like they are family.
The electric company one might be better than the Square-Ds (you need two of the cheaper one, one for each leg) or even the Intermatic one for 100 dollars, or not. ;-)
Thank you TDD and Trader and James for all the help.
I understood. I was just kidding around.
Looks like you figured this racket out. You can buy one for $100 to
125 and if you can put in a circuit breaker, you can install it yourself. You can compare the ratings, IF you can even find the ratings for the one the electric company rents to you. My bet is that the Intermatic is as good as, or better than theirs. They all use MOVs and there is no lock on the technology or what it takes to make one.
First of all, it is NOT an 80% efficient furnace. It is an 80+% efficiency furnace, and test documents the dealer had showed it to be approxemately 85% efficient when running in the mode mine is running in (timed low burn) with the specified temp rize across the heat exchanger etc. Since the company that installed it 8? years ago is no longer in business I cannot ask for copies of that documentation. It included all kinds of stack temperature and stack airflow measurements as well as gas-flow measurements.
My furnace HAS the draft inducer, which according to your statement above makes it "not" an 80% furnace - and as I stated, it was sold as an "80+%" furnace . It is identical to the condensing 94% furnace but with the second heat exchanger deleted.
I bought the furnace 8 years ago and got the full rebate available at the time.
As stated before, and above, my furnace DOES have an inducer blower. I chose NOT to have the secondary heat exchanger in my furnace because I have seen too many failures with the condensing heat exchanger and the required drainage systems - and the dealer I bought from agreed that the condensing furnaces at that time did not have as good a record as the non-condensing furnace, all else being the same.
With running the blower on low all the time, his figures showed the furnace I bought had a lower overall operating cost than a condensing furnace with a conventional blower. Their service records showed a very negligible increase in failure rate for the BDC blower over the AC blower, particularly on the smaller furnace(which uses the same electronics as the larger furnace, with a bigger blower motor - Mine is 1/2 HP, the larger units run 1HP on the same controller) The drive electronics are all over-spec for the motor installed and the load it drives.
And my furnace has a choice of 4 speeds for the continous run- from
600-1000cfm@0.10" static, and 8 speeds for heating and cooling ranging from 550 to 1350 cfm at 0.50" static. The speed setting is selected by the installer to obtain the proper heat rize across the heat exchanger at each output setting. In a larger house you would use a 1HP blower, with 1000 to 1750cfm constat at 0.10" static, and 800-2100 cfm at 0.50" static for heating and cooling. A similar spec (but different manufacturer) furnace installed in my daughter's 6 level condo handles the airflow just fine too.No, on my furnace there are FOUR operational speeds programmed, constant,low fire, high fire, and cooling. As for buying the wrong furnace, you are accusing me of doing just that, when my furnace meets every requirement you say this type of furnace does not. You need to remember what I've learned a LONG time ago. You can NOT buy on price alone. You need to look at features and requirements, and balance them first - THEN look at price. If a (furnace or whatever) has the features required to meet your requirements, buying more features is a waste of money. If it does not have the features required, it is too expensive at any cost. If my heating costs were in the $2000 a year range, paying several hundred dollars more for a condensing furnace, even if it meant a possible reduction in lifespan of 3-5 years might make some sense (it could concievably save $400 a year in gas costs) but with a total gas useage of $700 including DHW, the extra cost vs advantage didn't make a compelling arguement.
Since I had determined years ago that I WOULD run a constant speed fan, the significant power reduction on low speed offered by the brushless DC fan notor made that "feature" a no brainer. No way was I going to install a furnace with a "conventional" blower motor as a replacement for the one I already had. Also,having a pretty good handle on the run-time of my original furnace, I KNEW I did not need a 50kbtu or higher furnace in my house under normal conditions - and the only way to get a roughly 30kbtu furnace was in a 2 stage unit - which had the advantage of also being able to handle the occaisional extreme cold without stress, and bring the house up to temperature quickly when needed.
I have had the furnace now for 8 years,and with the exception of a loose blower wheel on the inducer fan (which I repaired by myself at no cost) that started getting noisy at just over one year, it has been totally trouble free and has met or exceded all my expectations.
Yes you can - and you can be stupid and buy a Farrari to drive 2 blocks to the grocery store too.
We are not talking about being 100% clueless and stupid here. Many more furnaces are oversized in North America than undersized, and a 2 stage furnace of the correct size range gives all the advantages of a "properly sized" furnace with the advantage of an "oversized" furnace when you (need) it.
If you are going to just go and buy the cheapest furnace you csn get your hands on, and install it yourself, without setting it up properly, assuming it will do the job properly, you are a dreamer. And conversely, if you go out and buy the biggest gee-whiz-golly equipped furnace you can buy, assuming it will do the best job for you, you are also a dreamer.
And you tell me where I can buy a 28000 btu (or less) output furnace that is made for residential (not RV or mobile home) use.
Because I choose to insulate and seal a house rather than heat the outside world, I can get away with a much smaller furnace than if I had a drafty old barn of a house. And I don't even need the 3 bedrooms of my modestly sized home, much less a much larger home, what couple with no kids at home needs a 3000 square foot, or larger, home???
On what basis? a 10% improvement in efficiency would save at best $70 a year in operating costs - and if I forgo the brushless DC motor as recommended bu you guys, the operating cost of the 95% furnace would excede the operating cost of the furnace I now have.
My last furnace was still going strong at 30 years.With only a blower fan motor replacement and about 5 or 6 thermocouples.
That remains to be seen. If in 10 years from now it needs to be replaced, we will look at the available technology then and make a new decision. If in 5 or so years there is a great breakthrough in furnace technology that makes a convincing arguement to replace this furnace with something significantly better, at an acceptable price, I'll replace it then.
8 years ago there was no convincing arguement to do any different than what I did - and other than the fact that non-condensing furnaces are now almost non-existant here, and the rebates likely differentiate between the two, I'd quite likely make the same descision today.
Since he believes that a two stage furnaces becomes 5% more efficient when running at the lower firing stage, I'd say that he could meet that qualification. Did you read the Berkely study? Can you show me any study, data sheet, etc that says a two stage furnace, produces 5% more heat from the same amount of gas as a single stage? If it is so, why don't the manufacturers put it in the specs of the furnace? Example: Model XGQ090 90,000 BTUS, 95% efficient using first stage,
90% using second stage. Would be a hell of a selling feature, no?Instead, all you hear are flapping gums that start with "comfort" and more recently end with big energy savings.....
Where's the answer to my question above? Even in your house, where you only spend $600 on heating, with a 95% furnace, you'd save 16% on that bill, or $96 a year. In two or three years, you've recouped the whole cost of the more efficient furnace. Yesh, I know. That extra heat exchanger could fail some day prematurely. But so could the inducer, ECM motor or anything else in a modern furnace. Actually, the heat exchanger in most new furnaces has the longest warranty, like 25 years or lifetime. What's the warranty on the two stage gas valve or ECM blower, drive electronics, etc?
I guess since most of the basements are heated, it's a good idea that they are often finished. Around here, we generally don't heat them unless they are finished. So, what do you think of the idea of running the furnace blower 24/7 for the rest of those houses in CA? Those with the furnace in an unheated basement, garage, or attic?
Which matters not a wit.....
And what principle of physics or physiology does that rely on? I'm at the same comfort from a furnace that runs the blower for 15 mins an hour or constantly. I don't have hot spots or cold spots. But if I ran the blower 24/7 in winter during periods when the furnace isn't firing, I would suspect I could have more drafts.....
We're not limiting the discussion to your tiny, atypical house, which you said is too small even for the smallest furnace. Anyone familiar with construction in the USA and I suspect CA too, knows that almost all houses have duct work run in exterior walls. How exactly do you insulate those from basement to 2nd floor? Inside the outside wall cavities, when the ducts are put in, there is very little space left for any insulation. Ever hear of water pipes freezing in outside walls? That should tell you how warm it can be inside some of those walls. I have ducts that run 55 feet through the unfinished basement, to the far end of the house, then go from the basement up to the second floor. How much heat do you think gets lost along that route when you're pumping air around constantly as opposed to only running the blower when actually heating? And I say simple logic tells you that you are going to lose heat there. The more you move the air around, the more you lose.
Tell us how many people faced with buying a new furnace are going to go back and make the duct work the builder installed perfect? Can they insulate in those now closed walls? Add more ducting to the 2nd floor without tearing the house apart or putting chases in the living rooom, etc? In some cases, things can be done. But it isn't easy or cheap. If it can be done within reason, I'm all for it.
He didn't say that, and nor did I. I said it is an 80+ % efficient furnace, which he stated is likely running closer to 85% than 80%
By your own words, it cannot be an 80% efficient furnace because you said one of the differences between an 80% and a 90% or higher furnace is the presence of a draft inducer blower - WHICH THIS FURNACE HAS.
There is a small but measurable difference in OVERALL efficiency with a furnace that runs longer at a time, therefore having fewer purge cycles and fewer warm-up/cool-down cycles than a "larger" furnace.
The rating of the furnace at 80+% means the furnace will excede 80% efficiency in any approved installation. High fire, Low fire, timed, or dual stage thermostat. If it will excede 80% (say for arguement
81%) in a marginal installation, where it is significantly if not grossly oversised and run on high fire only, it should/will excede 83% if properly sized to the house/heat load.(on high fire or low fire). And I don't care what kind of math you use, 83% is closer to 85% than it is to 80%I do not consider this house to be tiny, and it is far from atypical in a large percentage of the 20-40 year old subdivisions in any of the major cities or towns within a 60 mile radius. It is significantly larger than many in the 30-70 year old developments (early post war).
I am familliar with construction in Canada. Particularly in Ontario. My dad was in the construction business most of his working life, and I worked with him enough to know that was not the business I wanted to be in the rest of my life.
There is NO ductwork in the exterior walls of this house, nor in virtually any others in this neighbourhood/subdivision, nor in the vast majority of homes in this city or province. Putting ductork in the exterior walls is a foolish way of trying to heat a house!!! ALL of the ductwork goes up the center bearing wall of the house to the second floor, where it then runs between the floor joists to where the heat registers are located - so any "lost" heat simply warms the floor above. Any heating contactor who tried to do otherwise, except in very rare conditions, would be laughed off the job site, The cold air returns are also run through the same wall.
Same with running heating ducts in an attic. In houses without forced air heat (hydronic or radiant in-floor, for instance) that want central air conditioning you will occaisionally end up running the AC ducts through the attic - but only as a last resort, because cooling an attic is also a foolhardy endeavour. Running AC ducts up outside walls in these instances is not terribly uncommon, but attic mounted air conditioners or furnaces are EXCEPTIONALLY rare here. And today 2X4 walls are almost unheard of (last 10 years or so virtually all 2X6 or staggered double 2X4)) and sprayed urethane whole house envelope insulation is becoming pretty common. ICF is also gaining a fair momentum in residential construction, and is really taking hold in MURB construction up to about 15 stories.
Water pipes are also virtually NEVER installed in outside walls here, and the whole house is insulated - not the heating ducts - the american practice of wrapping heating ducts is almost unheard of here. Any heat that escapes from the ducts heats the (interior) walls, it does not escape from the "insulated envelope" of the house, so it is not wasted.
My inside walls are on average 2 degrees F warmer than the outside walls today when it is about -5F outside, except for the section of wall where the heat ducts go upstairs - where they are just about 3F degrees warmer than the outside walls of the same room.(measured with infrared thermometer)
Absolutely none in my house, and most others around here, because the basement is MOST often heated. Land and construction costs (not to mention heating) are high enough that only the rich, generally, build all their living space above ground and relegate the basement to "cellar" status. And most of them would rather have a nice heated games room, gym, or media room in the basement than leave it go to waste. (particularly in a bungalow)
Kinda stupid to have the furnace at the far end of the house too, isn't it?? And the chimney pouring all that heat out the outside wall. OK, the furnace is on the end wall of my house too, but I don't have
55 feet of ductwork running across the length of the house either**. ANd high efficiency furnaces don't pump much heat up the chimney - but with high efficiency furnaces you do not need a chiney at all, so there is no reason not to have the furnace centrally located so you "loose" less heat, and have a much easier job balancing air flows/heat output. (particularly if you are not planning to "finish", heat, and use the basement) **Would be very difficult (to have 55 feet of heating duct running accross the basement) on the (large side of )average 60 foot urban/suburban lot. Vast majority of urban/suburban lots TODAY are 45 feet wide, with a minimum 3 or 4 foot side yard setback requirement. Add to that the REQUIREMENT that there be at least one legal sised parking space behind the building line, which means at leat 10 feet is used up by driveway, carport, or garage, and a 55 foot WIDE house is pretty rare, and 55 feet DEEP is not common either. There are a few subdivisions with 1/2 acre lots but fewer and fewer as the developable land is quickly being built up, and infilling is the only way to free up more lots. The few large lots available run $450,000 and up for a bare lot here in Kitchener-Waterloo,(saw a couple advertized for $650,000 plus) and well over double that in Toronto. You cannot build a new home (or anything else) in the greenbelt area, and the "right to farm" has limitted the urban sprawl here in Waterloo Region.(where my "not atypical" 2 story house with attached garage is worth something just under $300,000 on a 55X115 foot corner lot)(which is pretty well the average selling price of resale housing in the area)Your logic is faulty.
They don't have to insulate in the inside walls. Often the main "trunk" duct in the basement and the connection to the furnace (plenum) is what needs the most attention - and the addition af a few "ballance" flaps, and proper adjustment of them, makes a HUGE difference
What do you think people do who retrofit houses built 30-40 years ago with electric baseboard heat????? It is done a LOT up here. You open one side of the (internal) living room (or kitchen) wall, tear up a bit of flooring, and install the ducting the way it should be done. "You either go big, or go home". Is it cheap? no. but it is cheaper than continuing to heat with electric baseboard heat with todays electricity costs. Occaisionaly you cut corners and run the duct up a "chase" as you call it, in a corner of a room. But if you do it that way, you just reduced the resale value of the house by as much as it costs to do it right, generallly speeking. (unless you get an uneducated buyer with "limited" funds who does not get a home inspection, and is generally satisfied just being able to say he owns the roof over his head)
And you said the dealer said this:
" It is an 80+% efficiency furnace, and test documents the dealer had showed it to be approxemately 85% efficient when running in the mode mine is running in (timed low burn) with the specified temp rize across the heat exchanger etc."
So forgive those of us who are totally confused at this point. Is that furnace that the manufacurer spec'd at 80% really running at:
A - around 85%
B- closer to 85% than 80%, ie at least 82.6%
C - closer to 80%, which is what the Berkley study I cited shows?
I made the mistake of assuming that 80% furnaces don't have a draft inducer. I'm wrong on that point. I just looked at one online and it has one too. But that detail is a distraction, because it only makes your apparent advocacy of an 80% two stage furnace more difficult to defend. The only difference left between that furnace and a 93% or 95% furnace today is the latter has an additional heat exchanger and costs about $250 more. The cost differential easily recovered by the 16% reduction in fuel costs. Even if your fuel bill is only $500 a year, you'd recover it in 3 years and then be ahead. And that is without rebates from govt, utilities, etc. For many people, that makes the 95% furnace less expensive from day one. You can't get a rebate that I know of from anyone for an 80% furnace.
Yeah, I know, that extra heat exchanger could fail, but since they are covered under long warranties, like 25 years, seems like a reasonable risk to me. You have yet to answer that simple question, which goes to the core of the issue:
Say we have a guy with a 2,000 sqft home, living in say Ohio. Would you say he should buy an 80% furnace today, or a 95% furnace?
I believe the EPA test methodology includes that. And oddly, the Berkely study came to the conclusion that two stage furnaces actually benefit from the current test methods, which they said do not accurately reflect actual two stage operation. The new proposed test method, which Berkley believes more accurately represents two stage operation shows no efficiency advantage to two stage. None...
Lets' assume the above is true, and the two stage furnace is 83% efficient in some installations, Then using the same exact arguments, the 95% furnace has a slightly higher potential output too. So what? 83% is still a long way from say 97% and the latter will save about
16% on fuel
You REALLY CAN"T READ, can you??? It is an 80+% efficient furnace as advertized by the manufacturer. That means it is somewhere between, say, 80.5% and 100% efficient.
Gee, you were wrong?? What a revelation!!!
You ever try to get one replaced under warrantee??????? I know quite a few people who just gave up and paid to replace the furnace. My brother was lucky enough the dealer who sold him the first one (5 years earlier) was pissed off enough about the failure rate and the warrantee hassles he just gave him a new furnace from a different manufacturer at cost
IF he can buy the right sized 95% or better efficient furnace from a reputable manufacturer and he gets a good rebate from the government for putting it in, he should definitely put it in. But I'd STILL reccommend the DC fan and dual stage, because that is what we started talking about in the first place. The whole 80% or 85% efficiency was just "noise" which YOU latched onto.
I said I recommended the 2 stage burner, then said what I had and what my experience was, and why I bought what I bought.
YOU said the 2 stage was not a good idea. YOU said the DC fan was not a good idea, and then you said the 80% was not a good idea.
Well hear's a news flash for you. I totally dissagree on your first 2 points. On the third, it's almost a moot point now in many areas anyway, because anything less than about 93% does not qualify for the grants any more. The new condensing heat exchangers are hopefully better than the old ones, so I'd say go for it - BUT - NO WAY would I install a condensing high efficiency furnace with a conventional AC blower motor, and not very likely in that instance anything other than a 2 stage furnace (because he doesn't need a
75000BTU furnace - and if he does he should be investing in new windows, insulation, and other weather-sealing of his chicken-coop.)You really can NOT read or comprehend, can you????? IF the manufacturer is being truthfull in his specifications,( which may be stretching credulity in the US today,) the 95% efficient furnace is 95% efficient - on a good day when all the stars align just right, and the 80+% efficient furnace is something marginally better than 80% efficient under the same circumstances. Nothing says the 95% furnace could ever excede 95%, or they would call it a 95+%, or a 97% efficient furnace, while the manufacturer of the 80+% furnace is saying it is a MINIMUM of 80% efficient - which means it could be any amount better than that. I'll believe about 83%. Which is still "closer to 85% than 80%" no matter how you do your math.
So ENOUGH.
te:
Of course I can read. You're the one that's having difficulty here as evidenced by your inability to remember what you posted two posts back. You claimed that your 80% furnacewas running at 85%, then you backtracked and claimed that it's just running at 80%+
See, here's the difference. When I'm wrong on a factual point, I'll admit it and correct it. And as I pointed out, that factual point does nothing to support your argument. With both a new 80% and a 95% furnace having a draft inducer, the only major remaining difference is the
95% has the second heat exchanger and costs a couple hundred dollars more.
You ever try to get that ECM motor replaced under warranty? Or the controller electronics? Or the draft inducer? Or any other part of a modern furnace? The warranties on the above are a lot less than the lifetime warranty you can get on heat exchangers from most manufacturers.
We latched on to it because you took great offense at me suggesting that someone who buys a two stage furnace that is 80% efficent is a moron. And I stand buy that for just about all people buying a furnace today that live in climates that are cold enough to use heating a significant portion of the time, ie heating bills of $500+ a year.
As for "if he can buy the right sized 95% furnace from a reputable manufacturer, what's up with that? They are available from every reputable manufacturer in sizes to fit most homes. Yes, you can find the pathological exception, but is that what matters? I bet I can find a furnace with the same output that you have, but 95% efficient instead of 80%.
Now again, it's you who is confused. I never said 2 stage was not a good idea. I did say that it's not going to give you a 5% gain in efficiency and make an 80% furnace into an 85% furnace. That statement is supported by the DOE testing that shows at best a 3% gain. And the Berkley study that shows a gain of zero.
I also didn't say the ECM blower was not a good idea. I said it's not the panacea that some make it out to be. I provided a study in another thread that showed that how much energy you save depends on a number of factors. Those include HOW it's used and what the existing duct work is like. If you choose to leave the blower running 24/7 and you have good duct work, you save the most. If you have typical duct work, and don't run it 24/7 you still save, but only 20% or so on electric. If you have poor duct work, you save little or possibly increase your electric usage. I would take ALL that into account before choosing what kind of blower to buy, instead of just blindly buying into the great wonders of ECM.
Even without the incentives, it quickly pays for itself. As I keep pointing out, the cost difference between an 80% two stage, ECM furnace and an identical one that is 95% is a couple hundred bucks. If you spend $1000 a year on heating costs, you've recovered that increased upfront cost in less than 2 years. What else has such a fast payback?
Geez, finally....
If he needs less than 75000, there are furnaces rated at less, whether single stage or two stage.
Again, what you believe to somehow be unique about 80% furnaces just isn't so. I can show you spec sheets on 80% furnaces that just state that they are 80% efficient per DOE tests, not marginally better. And I can show you product lines for furnaces labeled as the manufacturer's 90% product line that have efficiencies of 92, 93%. And I have yet to see one where the manufacturer spec'd ANY difference in efficiency whether it's firing at full output or only the lower second stage. Not saying there isn't some small difference, only that in the grand scheme of things, it's neglible and pales in comparison to the documented efficiency increase you get in going from an 80% furnace to 93 or 95%.
Which of course is still a long way from 93% or 95%.
No Idiot. I NEVER said I had an 80% efficient furnace. YOU say I have an 80% efficient furnace.
The furnace is an 80+% efficient furnace (which for all you know could be a 98% efficient furnace if I had not specified it is non-condensing.)
So you cannot read, or you cannot comprehend what you are reading, or both.
You also apparrently do not know what you are talking about, as evidenced by your statement that the difference between an 80% and a
90% efficient furnace included the presence vs absence of a draft inducer motor.Go crawl under your rock (or bridge) and bother someone else.
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Show us any furnace that is sold as an 80%+ furnace that reaches
98% efficiency. Or 95%, or 93%, or 90% in a data sheet spec. Or a data sheet showing that an 80% furnace reaches 85%. Whatever that 80% furnace is reaching, it's still pretty close to 80% and nowhere near the efficiency of a 95% furnace that costs $200 more.Furnaces of various types, including 80% are marketed as 80%+ because some models within that product line are capable of SLIGHTLY higher output when tested according to DOE procedures. So what? You apparently think that because you bought an 80%+ furnace, that "+" somehow makes it unique among furnaces, a marvel of science that defies physics and gets some significantly greater efficiency than 80%. Let's say it gets 82.6%/ Use 82.6% instead of 95% and it doesn't materially change the comparison.
I can do both. But you can't even keep straight what you posted:
"And the 80+% efficient furnace is supposedly running about 85% as installed - "
"He didn't say that, and nor did I. I said it is an 80+ % efficient furnace, which he stated is likely running closer to 85% than 80% "
So is it 85% or just 82.6%, or just some mumble jumble crap spouted by some numb nuts guy trying to sell a furnace.
You're incapable of realizing that this point, which you keep bringing up, just makes your case worse. With a draft inducer in the 80% furnace, the only difference left between the 80% and the 95% is the second heat exchanger and $200 in cost.
Two choices:
A - 80%, two stage, ECM blower
B - 95%, two stage, ECM blower, $200 more
I stand by my earlier statement that only a moron would go out and buy choice A. That's purely from a dollar and sense standpoint. I'd also consider that with the concern about CO2 emissions, it's always a good thing today to go with the choice that's going to emit less CO2, where it's possible and doesn't have a significant downside.
And I quickly corrected my error on the draft inducer point. Unlike you, who frequently puts out total nonsense and then won't even correct it. Want an example? In another thread here, a couple days ago, you questioned when the last time anyone saw a car battery with removable vent caps, implying they don't exist anymore. I have two of them sitting in my cars in the garage. Another poster responded similarly. Did you admit you were wrong? Of course not.
Or how about when you claimed modern cars don't have dozens of microprocessors, because when those microprocessors are programmed to one or a few functions, function, eg radio control, or air bag control, they magically are no longer microprocessors?
I'll leave it for others to judge who the village idiot is here.
You've made your point. You are a difficult, ignorant, crusty cuss. GO AWAY.
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