control boards in modern appliances

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He was exposed as a repeated liar. So Bud must misrepresent what I said so as to insult. Bud is a sales promoter of scam products. He will not even admit to promoting his company products. He lies about what I posted because I identified him as unethical.
So many including Saltydog and HeyBub are now repeating what I accurately posted so many years ago. And was attacked by Bud because that is what a sales promoter does. Only earthing electrode that is insufficient is the cold water pipe. I said it then and was attacked by Bud for accurately citing code. All other electrodes are sufficient to meet code. I said it then and I repeat it again - into Bud's lying face. The only electrode that must always be supplemented by any other electrode is a cold water pipe.
Cold water pipe (with some rare exceptions) is insufficient as an earth ground according to paragraph 250.53(D)(2). Bud denied what that paragraph said in 2002 - and still denies it today.
Brian and Joseph McPartland in their book "National Electrical Code Handbook" (at least 25 editions) are even blunter in contradicting the electrically naive Bud:

Saltydog and so many other posters are correct. Up until 1978, a water pipe was the best earthing electrode. Then code changed. Cold water pipe electrode is now the least acceptable earth ground. Code changed decades ago. It required nasty Bud to read paragraph 250.53(D) (2) rather than attack others to promote his scam products..
Whereas a cold water pipe meets the definition of an earthing electrode, it is the only electrode so insufficient as to require any other earthing electrode. After 25 years, Bud still cannot learn that a cold water pipe is insufficient earthing. That would requirement him to learn facts rather than post insults.
In most cases, if the water pipe ground is the only earth ground, then earthing is insufficient for surge protection. Critical to protection is a short connection to earth - ie 'less than 10 feet' with no sharp wire bends and other requirements. Even pipe solder joints can compromise that earth ground. Pipe grounds are insufficient when too far away. Just another reason why most pre-1990 buildings need earthing upgrades. Do not have sufficient earthing also for surge protection. Ground alone does not avert more ‘dead canaries’. But a short connection to single point ground is essential – one requirement - to appliance protection. Which again contradicts nasty Bud's lies and says why his products will not avert the OP's damage..
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On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 20:24:56 -0500, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

"Should" is a term used by the lazy and incompetent. And ground loops introduce noise, which is a problem for sensitive electronics whether you like it or not.

No, they should not be creating codes and requirements that cause operational problems, and even the possiblity of creating safety problems where none exist. Differences in ground potential, since you obviously don't know what they are, can be as dangerous as a bare live wire.
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On Sep 27, 5:32 am, snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

The industry quote is "the NEC is written in blood". That is, someone died for that provision to get where it is. "None exist", my A$$.

You've once again demonstrated how clueless you are.
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wrote:

Okay, touch a wet finger to "ground" inside a switch-mode power supply with an isolated ground and have the coroner get back to us.
You apparently don't even understand the term "Ground Potential"
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On Sep 27, 9:06 am, snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

Move the goal posts again, while you're at it.

You insist on changing the subject.
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wrote:

I haven't changed the subject or moved the goal posts.
You haven't budged from not knowing what "ground potential" means, either. If you did know what it meant, you wouldn't think I moved the goal posts or changed the subject.
Go back to sleep.
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On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:30:17 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

Of course you have, liar.

Liar. Look at the subject line, then take a remedial reading course.

Go back to fishing. You're talking through your ass.
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On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 18:59:10 -0500, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

No, I have not. I really have not.

I wonder how many of those modern appliances have sensitive electronics... or switch-mode power supplies!
Go back to sleep.
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On Sep 28, 6:24 am, snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

Electronics and a switching power supply means those 120 volt appliances must withstand 600 volts without damage. He has multiple controller failures. If due to transients, then he has transients exceeding 600 volts inside the house. That should never exist. The controller is a 'canary in the coalmine'. A warning that something is wrong. And that worse can be expected if he does not solve the problem. An effective solution starts with proper earthing (that meets and exceeds post 1990 code) and a 'whole house' protector.
No transient should be inside a house causing damage. A solution to transients has been well proven for over 100 years now. That energy must dissipate before it can enter the building. A solution that means nothing inside the house is threatened. That 600 volt transients would not exist if earthing and a 'whole house' protector are properly installed..
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westom wrote:

Why "must" electronics withstand 600V. There is no standard. People in repair newsgroups say some electronics has protection and some does not. That is also what I have seen.
Protection that is often used is a MOV from line to neutral (and sometimes MOVs to ground). But according to w that can not possibly work - there is no less than 10 ft connection to an earthing electrode.

Wow - you used "if".
What we don't know: Is OP in a high lightning area? Lightning around the time of failures? Other major surge sources? What protection was provided by the manufacturers? What is the electrical system earthing? Is there a neutral-ground bond at the service? Loose neutral? Schlocky wiring? Coincidence?

I give up. What do you think happened in the 1990 NEC?
--
bud--

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On Tue, 28 Sep 2010 06:24:28 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

Certainly you have, liar.

I'm glad you came back to this discussion, admitting that you are a liar.

Irrelevant.
Why? You don't like getting caught in your lies?
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On Wed, 29 Sep 2010 23:29:20 -0500, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

Your only "argument" is to call me names. That's because you have nothing else. You shot your mouth off on a subject that you know little or nothing about, and then couldn't figure out an escape route.
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On Sep 30, 5:20 am, snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

It's hard to do anything else since you constantly change the subject, liar.
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wrote:
<snip endless whining and name calling because keith made a fool of himself and can't let go>
See ya, dopey!
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On Sep 30, 12:13 pm, snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

What a liar, saltydong.
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snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

You would have to explain that further.
If it is relevant - an "isolated ground" is always required to connect back to the ground bar at the service, with variations on how it is done. Some manufacturers have said, for their product, to connect an isolated ground receptacle with the receptacle ground terminal connecting ONLY to a ground rod, which is only connected to the receptacle. This is a major code violation, stupid, and unsafe. It may be the basis of your hazard. (I agree with gfretwell that isolated grounds are mostly black magic.)
The IEEE Emerald book ("IEEE Recommended Practice for Powering and Grounding Sensitive Electronic Equipment") says "In general, equipment that cannot be made to operate in a satisfactory manner without violating applicable electrical safety requirements is not suitable for use in normal applications. This inability is considered to be a design flaw of the subject equipment."
--
bud--

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On Sep 26, 9:24 pm, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

snipped-for-privacy@att.bizz... makes an important point. NEC is about human safety. Grounding defined by the NEC is only for human safety. Surge protection means installing this same earth electrode to exceed NEC requirements.
Dr Standler noted that effective protection could have been achieved by "mandatory standards". But in 1988, he saw no hope of mandatory protection standards (transistor protection) being adopted in the United States. As krw accurately notes, mandatory protection does not exist. Mandatory protection is not the purpose of or defined by the National Electrical Code.
The OP suffered repeat control board failure. A surge not properly earthed before entering a building will hunt for earth destructively inside a building. Destructively via control boards. His solution means upgrading earthing. And connecting every incoming wire short to that single point ground. Either directly or via a 'whole house' protector. No such protection explains why control boards are repeatedly damaged.
NEC defines grounds for human protection. Transistor protection means a same earth ground must also exceed NEC requirements.
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On 9/27/2010 8:42 PM, westom wrote:

Sure, and the other thing is that (some) people want cheap stuff. So manufacturers cut corners in things like power supplies to lower the price.
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A computer supply can cut corners because the manufacturer need not meet standards. Meeting standards is the responsibility of a computer assembler - not the power supply manufacturer. Most computer assemblers do not know that they are responsible for missing functions in a cheap supply.
A supply inside a major appliance must be sufficient because the appliance manufacturer is using designers with electrical knowledge; because the manufacturer must meet industry standards.
Cutting corners to lower a price is a problem when the computer assembler / manufacturer does not know who is responsible for meeting standards. Cutting corners would not explain those controller failures. Transients that must not be inside any house may explain the failures.
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wrote:

Hoo-Boy!
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