Biofuel


I have an opportunity to burn B100 or 100% biofuel from a supplier for a good price. Problem is they say it will take out my o-rings in the burner fuel pump. How long will it take to do that? Beckett does not sell parts for oil pumps as they do not rebuild them, only replace them and do not have bio pumps. Webber makes a pump for biofuel but it does not have the delayed ignition fuel valve connection. Nobody seems to be ready for alternative fuels. How the hell we gonna get off foreign oil if we can't burn other things? Is there an additive that will save the oil rings?
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Blattus Slafaly ? 3 :) 7/8

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Blattus Slafaly wrote:

Find out what o-ring material is compatible, then dismantle the pump and measure the o-rings, order matching size ones in the proper material and replace them. mcmaster.com likely has what you'll need.
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Pete C. wrote:

That would be my suggestion too. O-rings made from Viton would be a good choice.
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Blattus Slafaly wrote:

I'd question that as being likely w/ biodiesel -- ethanol, possibly, but I've been unaware of any incompatibility of biodiesel w/ conventional--it's been a selling point that it is interchangeable for engines including all lubricity requirements, emissions, etc. The comparative requirements for fuel oil are significantly less.
I'd think one of two things -- the supplier doesn't really know and is just being cautious or repeating something he heard somewhere or there's an impurity or additive in the particular fuel that's the problem. Might ask what particularly in the fuel is the problem.
I don't recall the url offhand, but there is a national (US) biodiesel fuel organization--well, let's see, I've got a recent High Plains Journal (regional ag publication here, let's see if they've got a blurb in there this week)...no, didn't see it, unfortunately. I'm sure google will find it. I'd suggest looking it up and contacting them as well.
Or, if you can find out who/where the fuel itself actually comes from, see if can get info directly from them.
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dpb wrote:

It is a known issue especially with B100. "old school" gasket/o-ring materials such as nitrile and buna are softened by it.

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wrote:

Call Beckett to see if it is true.
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The site DPB referred to is www.biodiesel.org
Also, the biodiesel will not attack or deteriorate the o-rings any faster than dino diesel will. Burn away without worry.
s

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Steve Barker DLT wrote:

You know this from actual experience or you just don't believe there are issues?
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Aside from bio-diesel, did you catch this recent biofuel development? http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080407102812.htm
"green gasoline";useable in all present GAS autos with no mileage penalties.
Of course,the environutz will still be against it as it is still a carbon- based fuel and doesn't force us to get rid of our present personal transpo. (and move to mass transit)
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Jim Yanik
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Steve Barker DLT wrote:

... Actually, according to the NBB (National Biodiesel Board), there can be a problem...
Well, I went and looked and I'll be doggie'd -- says so here plain as day. I guess 'cause Mr Deere was forward-looking it wasn't an issue w/ the tractors so I assumed it was at least "compatible enough" -- I do recall the cleanliness/sediment issue when first started w/ it at the local Co-op, however, as we installed new handling lines as well as the added storage.
http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/npbf/pdfs/40555.pdf
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dpb wrote:

All that shows is that non-vehicle tests were done with 20% bio or B20. I was talking about B100 or 100% bio diesel.
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Blattus Slafaly wrote:

...
...
That is _NOT_ "all that shows" at all...
Section 3 on B100 includes in the opening paragraphs the specific answer to the question posed if you would have simply take the time to read it...
3. BIODIESEL (B100)
This section will describe the basic properties and blending considerations for B100 fuels. The considerations for storing, handling, blending and using B100 are very different than for B20 or lower biodiesel blends, ...
B100 has physical and chemical properties similar to petroleum based diesel ...[but]... there are important differences between B100 and conventional diesel fuels that must be taken into consideration when handling or using B100.
1. B100 is a good solvent. It may loosen and/or dissolve sediments in fuel tanks and fueling systems left by conventional diesel over time. If your system contains sediments, you should clean your existing tanks and fuel system before handling or using B100.
2. B100 freezes at higher temperatures than most conventional diesel fuel and this must be taken into account if handling or using B100. Most B100 starts to cloud at between 35F and 60F, so heated fuel lines and tanks may be needed even in moderate climates.
3. B100 is not compatible with some hoses and gaskets. B100 may soften and degrade certain types of rubber compounds found in hoses and gaskets (i.e. buna N, nitrile, natural rubber) and may cause them to leak and become degraded to the point they crumble and become useless. This could cause a fuel spill on a hot engine, could ruin a fuel pump, ... Some systems already have biodiesel resistant materials (i.e. Viton) but many do not because these materials are usually slightly more expensive.
4. B100 is not compatible with some metals and plastics. Biodiesel will form high sediment levels if contacted for long periods of time with copper or copper containing metals (brass, bronze) or with lead, tin, or zinc (i.e. galvanized surfaces). ...
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wrote:

I don't know about heating, but in diesel engines many have problems with bio. It can be addressed and I would guess it would not be too difficult with a heating system.
That said, I would suggest that often there is very little gain by using bio fuels. The cost of production (amount of fuel used in production) and the pollution can be equal to or more than that of prime sources.
Of course turning your thermostat down and adding insulation will both save you money and reduce foreign imports.
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snipped-for-privacy@columbus.rr.com wrote: ...

I don't know what "problems" you're referring to, but the only really significant issue is the one of higher gelling temperatures as a fuel. Blending is the easiest solution of course.
...

... Au contraire, there are many good reasons for using biofuel (and biodiesel in particular)...
Biodiesel Displaces Imported Petroleum
The fossil fuel energy required to produce biodiesel from soybean oil is only a fraction (31%) of the energy contained in one gallon of the fuel.(2) You get 3.2 units of fuel energy from biodiesel for every unit of fossil energy used to produce the fuel. That estimate includes the energy used in diesel farm equipment and transportation equipment (trucks, locomotives), fossil fuels used to produce fertilizers and pesticides, fossil fuels used to produce steam and electricity, and methanol used in the manufacturing process.
(2) Sheehan et al. May 1998. A Life Cycle Inventory of Biodiesel and Petroleum Diesel for Use in an Urban Bus. NREL/SR-580-24089.
Biodiesel Reduces Emissions
When biodiesel displaces petroleum, it reduces global warming gas emissions such as carbon dioxide (CO2). When plants like soybeans grow they take CO2 from the air to make the stems, roots, leaves, and seeds (soybeans). After the oil is extracted from the soybeans, it is converted into biodiesel and when burned produces CO2 and other emissions, which return to the atmosphere. This cycle does not add to the net CO2 concentration in the air because the next soybean crop will reuse the CO2 in order to grow.
Because fossil fuels are used to produce biodiesel, the recycling of CO2 with biodiesel is not 100%, but substituting biodiesel for petroleum diesel reduces life-cycle CO2 emissions by 78%.
Biodiesel reduces tailpipe particulate matter (PM), hydrocarbon (HC), and carbon monoxide (CO) emissions from most modern four-stroke CI engines. These benefits occur because the fuel (B100) contains 11% oxygen by weight. The presence of fuel oxygen allows the fuel to burn more completely, so fewer unburned fuel emissions result. This same phenomenon reduces air toxics, because the air toxics are associated with the unburned or partially burned HC and PM emissions. Testing has shown that PM, HC, and CO reductions are independent of the feedstock used to make biodiesel. The EPA reviewed 80 biodiesel emission tests on CI engines and has concluded that the benefits are real and predictable over a wide range of biodiesel blends.
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dpb wrote:

Trouble is you need new fuel tanks and lines and new fuel pumps for your furnace in order to burn B100 or you will get clogged lines and destroyed rubber components. We are not "bio-ready".
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Blattus Slafaly wrote: ...

So, if you want something different, you'll have to step up to the plate, too. How would you propose going from one place to another w/o at least some effort? :(
You don't necessarily have to have completely new tanks altho you do need to clean them and the system well if making the switch to B100. The more logical first step would be blending.
That said, the facilities to use it in the tractors weren't anything significant at all--as I initially noted, I had completely forgotten the seals compatibility issue it had been so little of a problem (as in there was none). For that use, the biggest problem is the temperature one if try to go full bore--that takes some effort for the heated tanks, etc.
There are some larger producers in the area who are self-sufficient for their use committing only about 15% of their acreage (about 30% of soybean acreage) for their own stocks. It's a simple-enough technology that two or three together as neighbors can install the conversion equipment and make it work both technically and economically. We don't irrigate so soybeans aren't viable for us where we're located or probably would do at least some that way ourselves as well.
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Blattus Slafaly wrote:

You seem to be viewing change as a problem. Consider how we became "anything-ready". You have equipment designed to be compatible with conventional fuel oil and you want to use something else in it. So like any other change you identify what is necessary and do it. It is pretty unlikely you will need to replace the tanks. The biodiesel will clean them. You just need to check compatibility of o rings and seals and likely change the supply line from the tank if it is copper.
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