Barn Neutral Saga Continues (Was Bizarre Electrical)

[dpb]

Other was getting disjointed w/ too many side bars and false starts, etc., ... so thought I'd update.

Just finished cleaning up and putting new connector (threads stripped on the old 'un getting it off) at the connection at the weatherhead. It was somewhat corroded but not too bad so was a'feared it wasn't the issue and turns out it wasn't--no fixie. :(

I can cut the power _to_ the barn but the connections on the other end are at the hot location top of the pole before it goes down to the meter and then back up and over to the barn. Wind is now up to the point I'm not getting up near that until it isn't so much so--the manlift arm is flexible enough as is so that end will have to wait.

I'm thinking it can't be it anyway, however, as there are three others tied to it and there's not an issue in any other location excepting the barn while it's common to all locations.

Hence, it's coming down to there must be something going on between the connection in the disconnect/fuse box and the weatherhead--I suppose a packrat or some other varmint coulda' done something or perhaps there's even a connection/junction box in that run they needed to get it pulled--I've not yet done the full probe/investigation along the route although it's straight up the front wall of the barn thru the loft so I wouldn't think there would have been any need. But, there is an old horse/mule feed bin in the corner which covers up ready access/view w/o getting in and over it so anything is possible...

[dpb]

On 11/04/2015 1:39 PM, dpb wrote: ...

PS. Are we having fun yet???

[Scott Lurndal]

DBP suggested there may be a pull box (or pull el) in the path from the weatherhead to the fusebox. That's perfectly legal.

[Paintedcow]

Looks to me like you need to do some major re-wiring, before a person or animal dies..... The power from the weatherhead should go DIRECTLY to the breaker/fuse panel, with no junction boxes in between. If you still have a fuse box, it's time to upgrade anyhow.

[dpb]

Indeed, folks are full of "death and destruction" scenarios that don't fit the actual verbiage as written...

And, I just came in from a foray in the loft--as I suspected, all there is is the el at the top; I didn't drag a ladder over and open it but I know Dad well enough that there won't be a splice in there...

And, the fuse/disconnect box is _not_ what painted is thinking of, either...

Wind has gotten up and it's supposed to perhaps rain tomorrow so I ran the lift back in...looks like next step is to do a resistance check on that run but I'll have to get back up to the top to do it...

[dpb]

Doesn't "look" like anything to you; you ain't see'd it and you clearly didn't follow the description and/or made an assumption it says something it doesn't. One word reply--"nonsense".

There is a problem in the neutral, granted. It's still possible it's the other end connection at the pole altho it seems peculiar with the multiple ties at that point only one of the multiples would be bad but it's possible.

Alternatively, as noted, there is something going on in that particular run...

Or, I suppose, there could be a failure at the neutral block in the breaker panel...that's a common point as well altho hard to see how as I've checked the connection back to the disconnect both ends and measured that resistance to make sure it wasn't a high resistance from a near break or the like altho that would've been a fairly apparent heat source which should have been observable.

[dpb]

On 11/04/2015 4:49 PM, dpb wrote: ...

Actually, as another mentioned earlier in the other thread, simplest diagnostic here is probably to just run a temporary direct wire back from the breaker box neutral to the connection at the weatherhed bypassing the other box and existing wire altogether.

[Terry Coombs]

I'm having a simply marvelous F'ing time . I've been setting cement blocks . My first go ... the advice I got here has helped .

[tony944]

Didn't you said in one posting that if you put probe on tank and other on some kind pipe next to it that it seem to show some Voltage if and I mean if is that the case you have TWO problems one you are loosing ground and the other ,the heater inside of tank is leaking and you are electrifying Water, remove power leads from heater then check resistance between ground/tank and each individual terminal that normally power is hook up to it, "IT SHOULD BE INFINITY" it should show no resistance what so ever.

Doesn't "look" like anything to you; you ain't see'd it and you clearly didn't follow the description and/or made an assumption it says something it doesn't. One word reply--"nonsense".

There is a problem in the neutral, granted. It's still possible it's the other end connection at the pole altho it seems peculiar with the multiple ties at that point only one of the multiples would be bad but it's possible.

Alternatively, as noted, there is something going on in that particular run...

Or, I suppose, there could be a failure at the neutral block in the breaker panel...that's a common point as well altho hard to see how as I've checked the connection back to the disconnect both ends and measured that resistance to make sure it wasn't a high resistance from a near break or the like altho that would've been a fairly apparent heat source which should have been observable.

[dpb]

Nope....that was some other thread entirely.

[Mr.E]

Try using a drill or other substantial load on each 120 volt side while monitoring the voltage on the other side to points from the neutral wire into the panel forward along the neutral path. No voltage change ( or very little change ) on good neutral points. Bad neutral point should show change with load on other side.

[hrhofmann]

Put a couple of 100 watt light bulbs on each side of the 240V lines to neut ral. Measure the voltages, they should each be about 1/2 of the 240 line t o line voltage. Then turn off one of the four bulbs, so that you still have a load on each side, but one is twice the load of the other. Measure the voltages again. The voltage across the single bulb should be well over 120V , and the voltage across the two paralleled bulbs should be well under 120V . Do this quickly as the single bulb may burn out very quickly due to the over-voltage.

[trader_4]

That's similar to what I suggested in my first post. A heater would be a good choice for a load. I suggested just looking at voltage from hots to neutral along the path back. At the beginning it's ~120V. At the end it will be substantially less. Follow it back and see where it goes wrong.

[clare]

Quite often each searate "run" will be connected to the "main cable with it's own split bolt connector - and any one or all of them can be affected by atmospheric conditiond, wind movement, or just plain poor workmanship 30 years ago when they were installed.

[Paintedcow]

Yep, I said I did this when my garage neutral had a problem. Assuming your meter pole is not too far away, get a piece of #12 wire (or larger) and connect it to the neutral in the meter pole main box neutral bar. Run it to the weatherhead cable on the barn. Wrap it well around the support wire. Turn on the power and check if you now have 120 - 0 - 120 using a few lightbilbs for a load. If it works, you know the problem is between the meter pole and the weatherhead. If not, connect that wire directly into the barn breaker box. If it still dont work, you have a problem in that breaker box. You could also run that wire from the barn weatherhead to the breaker box to see if the problem is between the weatherhead and breaker box.

Of course this is only temporary and not for loads over 20A.

[dpb]

Those are crimped; REA ran them. Doesn't mean one can't have failed, just less likely methinks.

But the front blew thru last night and looks like wind will be down some today so perhaps can find the time to get to it again...altho it rained enough with the 4+" had last week it may be a little dicey getting the lift around; it's not articulated 2WD instead of 4 and at 12,000 lb isn't a good mud vehicle at all... :)

[Paintedcow]

It's MORE than Possible! I've seen those multiple wire connections where one of the wires is not well into the clamp (split bolt), or one cable corroded or burnt off and you cant see it under all the tape. I actually saw at a farm with multiple barns, where all the barns connected to one pole, and the barns were running too many livestock fans and other stuff on a very hot day, when all of a sudden there was a shower of sparks falling from that pole, and one of the barns lost power while the others still had power. I dont know if it was a hot or a neutral, but one of the connections fried. An electrician was called.

[dpb]

... without affecting another run, that is...again, almost anything (outside putting the toothpaste back in the tube) is possible, at least theoretically.

[dpb]

Only 100 yds or so...

Well, DUH! Ida _never_ thunk o' that!!! :(

[Paintedcow]

I dont care for those crimp types, but thats what you got. I dont see them being "less likely to fail". Assuming you have an insulated wire crimped to the bare support wire. Remove a little insulation just before the crimp. Take some auto jumper cables and jump across that crimp. (with the power off). Turn power on and see if you now have a working neutral. It would be best to tape where you removed the insulation afterwards.

All that wind and it did not blow the wires enough to make contact again. That tells you it's more than a loose connection.

If you use the jumper cables, just use either the red or the black, not a red on one side and black on the other. I'm sure I didn't need to tell you that! :)