Adding neutral/ground bar to Siemens S2020B1100 panel

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Which I'm sure you'd agree is an interesting concept. By diversity I assume they mean that the statistical probability of someone putting 100A of load all on one leg is low. I think we all agree, it's low, but it's not zero.

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Which is cool if it's a fixed installation of some known equipment. But it could be a house where someone could plug in a bunch of resistance heaters and have them by chance wind up on the same leg.

I agree. That was my first suggestion and everyone agrees it's 100% kosher. Use the new ground bar for grounds, move some existing grounds from the neutral/ground bar over to it, thereby freeing up more neutrals.
What are your thoughts about what I pointed out about current flow through the panel itself? If you put a ground bar on the other side of the panel, it's bonded to the panel. Even if you connect it with a heavy wire back to the original neutral, you still will have current dividing, with some of it going through the panel metal. I would think the better option would be to install an insulated neutral bar.
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On 4/30/2013 10:25 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

A #4 wire with 75 degree insulation has a rating of 85A. With 60 degree insulation the rating is 70A. They can be used as 100A service (for residential only) and feeders downstream from that service.
That is because of "diversity". Large loads (range, water heater, ...) will cycle on and off. If they are all on and draw 100A now they will cycle off soon.

I would still rather use a ground bar for ground wires. The neutral should have at least enough positions for neutrals for the number of poles allowed in the panel.
You are right about current flow through the panel as an alternate path.
All this assumes a service panel with a N-G bond. For a subpanel the alternate path is the ground conductor back to the service, which is a code violation.
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wrote:

Based on insulation temperature, right?

Absolutely.

Which is tied to the case (heat sink). It's not sealed up inside a wall.

Again, the temperature is based on the insulation rating, and assumptions about its environment, right? There is no insulation here and in fact there is a big-assed heat sink.
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On 4/30/2013 2:32 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

Doesn't matter what the insulation is. You can use #4 for a residential 100A service.

Connections (lugs, terminals, ...) have a temperature rating. The rating is based on the current rating of a conductor with insulation of that temperature. That limits the amount of heat at the connection contributed by the wire.
If you have a breaker that is rated for 75 degree C and you are using wire with a 90 degree C insulation, you can only use the wire at the current rating for a 75 degree wire. (The wire has a higher current rating at 90 degrees C.) If you had a bare wire you can only use it at the current rating for a 75 degree insulated wire.
For circuits of 100A and less, in general connections are only rated for the current allowed for a 60 degree wire unless the connection is explicitly rated different. (110.14-C)
If any heat sink modifies conditions it is up to the manufacturer and UL to determine a higher temperature rating for the connection.
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wrote:

OK, but he issue was #6.

I thought we were still talking about wiring between two ground or neutral bars?

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On 5/1/2013 11:29 AM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

#4 was a direct answer to trader.

The connections to ground and neutral bars are governed by the code, just like any other connection. They will have a rating as described in my post.

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On 4/29/2013 8:46 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

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I believe you can double up ground wires but neutral wires must be one per screw.
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Why put 2 under one screw if you dont have to? The panel will look far better if its neat and organized:) thats one wire per screw and definetely tie the 2 bars together...
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Well I guess if you have more ground wires than you have ground terminals, then you "have to". It's either that or go to all the added trouble of adding another ground bus. And I don't see it having anything to do with neatness and organization. You can put two wires into one terminal neatly. Or you could put two wires into two terminals and make it a mess. If two are allowed, I would do it.
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New Final Answer -- See Below.
TomR wrote:

http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/general/dlc/data/assets/US/SIILV/SIE_SA_ESPL_Sel_App_Guide.pdf

The new final answer on this is that it turns out that Siemens does in fact have a "neutral bar kit" that it now sells to enable people like me to add a second neutral bar to the panel that I have that only came with one neutral bar.
The one for my panel is Siemens catalog/part number ECCNB16.
Here is a link to the ECCNB16 Instruction Sheet which shows this neutral bar kit and how to install it:
http://www74.zippyshare.com/v/43794674/file.html .
Apparently, this is a new item that Siemens now sells. And, it turns out that on the Page 21 of the Siemens website that I posted in my original post above,
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/general/dlc/data/assets/US/SIILV/SIE_SA_ESPL_Sel_App_Guide.pdf (at the very bottom of the page, on the right), there are two "neutral bar kits" listed, but there is a typo and the catalog/part numbers that are shown are incorrect. Siemens sent me an email letting me know that the correct catalog/part number for the item that I needed is ECCNB16.
When I went to local electrical supply places near me, they didn't have them in stock and they weren't familiar with the neutral bar kit that I needed. And, since it is new, it wasn't listed in the Siemens catologs/brochures that they had. But, I showed them a copy of the ECCNB16 Instruction Sheet that I had and they were able to order the part using that catalog/part number. It arrived yesterday and I'll be installing it today.
One other note is that the electric supply place that I went to said that when Siemens switched over to their ES Series and PL Series load centers a few years ago, most of the electricians that the supply place deals with say they do not want the ES Series load centers -- in part due to the lack of a second neutral bar on ES Series panels with 24 or less circuits.
I know now that I should have specified that I wanted the PL Series panel when I had mine installed. Apparently, the PL Series is better quality and has a copper busbar, and they all come with two neutral bars, etc.
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Thanks for the update. And good to see you found a solution. Kind of amazing that the help line at Siemens couldn't figure this out day one.
One question. Is this neutral bar insulated from the panel metal or in direct contact with it? My guess would be that it's insulated, so that no current flows in the panel metal.
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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

You're right, it is kind of amazing that they didn't figure it out on day 1.
I have a hunch that Siemens created these new lines of load centers a few years ago, and maybe the idea of only including one neutral bar in certain models was something that they introduced at the same time. Then (I'm just guessing here), maybe it took a couple of years for them to think that they should give people the option of adding back the "missing" neutral bar. So, I think their "neutral bar kit" was just recently introduced by them and not everyone in the company knew about it yet. And, to make things more complicated, they have the wrong catolog/part number for that item on their website.
What happened was that after I received the first "final answer" from them saying that they did not have an offering of a way to add a neutral bar, I wrote back and asked what the "neutral bar kits" that I found on their website were for. That's when they realized that they do now have that option available, and they wrote back about what the neutral bar kit is and said it would work, and gave me the correct part number and a copy of the installation manual.
And, yes, the added neutral bar is insulated from the panel itself. It snaps into place on the left side on top of an existing plastic backing that keeps it insulated from the panel. The cross bar connects the original neutral bar to the second (newly added) neutral bar. The original neutral bar has a bonding screw that can be used to bond it to the panel (which makes it also a ground bar), or I think that screw can be backed out to keep it as just a neutral bar that is not grounded. In the latter case, separate ground bars can be added to the panel, and they are made to screw directly into the panel itself.
Incidentally, the neutral bar kit that I bought costs about $20. I actually bought 3 of them because I had 3 main load centers installed at the same time -- one for each of 2 apartments and one for a house panel. I probably could have gotten the PL Series load centers which include two neutral bars for about the same price that I ended up paying for the panels I have plus adding the neutral bar. I don't know for sure because I haven't checked the prices, but that's my guess.
I do like Siemens panels, but now I know that the next time that I have them put in I'll need to specify which panel I want -- meaning the PL Series that has a copper busbar, two neutral bars, etc.
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Another new update -- see below.
TomR wrote:

http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/general/dlc/data/assets/US/SIILV/SIE_SA_ESPL_Sel_App_Guide.pdf

. . . ,

I just received another email from the Siemens rep today. He said that he checked again with their product management people and they told him,
".... the ES load centers have been recently re-designed & now will be including the second neutral bar in all the 2020, 2024, & 2424 load centers."
I think that's a smart move on their part.
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They've only been making this stuff for a hundred years. Sooner or later they were bound to figure out how to make a panel right.
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