Adding neutral/ground bar to Siemens S2020B1100 panel

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I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only has one neutral/ground bar. The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of the panel.
I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the left side and, if so, how to do that.
The information about Siemens service panels is located at: http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/general/dlc/data/assets/US/SIILV/SIE_SA_ESPL_Sel_App_Guide.pdf .
This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits. On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24 circuits and below". So that explains why the panel that I have only has one neutral bar installed.
My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left side and, if so, how do I do that? Thanks.
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Is it just that you want a neutral/ground bus on the other side for convenience or is it that you've run out of terminals? If it's the latter, the product guide has a ECGB14, which is a ground bar that can be installed in that panel. So, one way to do it would be to add that ground bar, move some of the ground wires from the existing neutral/ground bus to it, thereby freeing up other terminals for more neutrals.
If you just want another neutral/ground bus on the other side, not sure if you can do that and be code compliant.
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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

It's a little of both. For convenience, I would like to be able to have a neutral/ground bus on the other side if possible. But, it also looks like I am going to run out of available terminals on the existing ground/neutral bar.

That's a good suggestion, and maybe I'll end up doing that if that becomes my only option.

Okay, thanks.
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http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/general/dlc/data/assets/US/SIILV/SIE_SA_ESPL_Sel_App_Guide.pdf .

*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. Mount the ground bar. Run a number 8 or 6 wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.
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if the cabinet is too thin to tap but mounted on plywood like it should be, just drill holes and use wood screws to mount the ground bar to the cabinet, then heavy copper between the old and new ground bars...
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bars... <<<
this hardly seems acceptable...wood screws?
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But what he originally asked for was adding a second "ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. You can add a ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes. But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar, meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... Is that correct? If he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more neutral wires.
Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw in at least some panels? That alone might solve the problem?
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On 4/25/2013 7:13 PM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

only. If as John said, you run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar, it'll work for both. You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well
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wrote:

Thanks. I think that is going to be the plan -- to add a ground bar and, as John said, run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar so it will work as a ground and a neutral bar.
And, as Trader4 siad, "the product guide has a ECGB14, which is a ground bar that can be installed in that panel", so we can use that since it is made for that panel and it is made to be threaded into the panel.

That's good to know. I did see that the electrician who put the panel in did put two grounds under one screw is a couple of cases for the circuits that he installed; but only one neutral wire (by itself) under any screw.
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*If you read the label on the Siemens panel, it should tell you how many ground wires you can get under one screw. Sometimes it is more than two. Neutrals are one per screw.
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But something about that doesn't seem quite right. If you just run a #6 or #8 wire between the new bar and the old bar, then you're relying on that wire to potentially carry the max current rating (100 amps) of the panel when in service, on a regular basis, as opposed to just a ground fault condition, no? Which could occur. I would think the conductor between the two would have to be rated for at least the max current of the panel, (100 amps).
Isn't there a similar issue also with using an add on "ground" bar as both a ground bar and neutral? The bar in the Siemens catalog is listed for use with that panel as a ground bar, but does that mean that it has the same current rating, etc that a neutral bar would have? I realize in practice it may actually be the same bar, but who knows?
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wrote:

well you could run 2 heavy copper lines between the bars....... how heavy is the neutral line to the existing bar?
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I think there are two seperate issues/questions here. One is what minimum things need to be in place from an electrical circuit theory perspective. And unless I'm missing something, that says the conductor between the bars better be at least the capacity of the panel, ie 100 amps.
The other is what is technically allowed by code, how the panel and bar are UL listed, tested, etc. For example, it's been debated here whether you can add a simple mechanical slide lock-out for a generator to an existing panel when that slide isn't made by that panel manufacturer, hasn't been UL listed for use with that panel, etc. That slide just sits on top of the panel, doesn't even have direct electrical involvement. It just prevents two breakers from being "on" at the same time. So, thinking along those lines, we have a bar rated and listed for use with the panel as a ground bar. The installation instructions only say how to install it as a ground bar. Is it code compliant to use that for neutrals too? What's the current rating of that bar? What would an inspector say?
I would think you, being very concerned that anything potentially not being done fully compliant will come back to bite you in a lawsuit from a future owner, a denied insurance claim, etc would agree that there are issues other than what will work electrically. If he installs it, uses it only for grounds, moves some of the existing grounds from the current "neutral/ground bar" over to it, he can get more neutral connections and I think we all agree it's 100% code compliant. Using that added ground bar as a neutral bar, I'm not convinced.
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I think there are two seperate issues/questions here. One is what minimum things need to be in place from an electrical circuit theory perspective. And unless I'm missing something, that says the conductor between the bars better be at least the capacity of the panel, ie 100 amps.
*The neutral in the main panel is permitted to be smaller than the two hot wires because it only carries the unbalanced load.
The other is what is technically allowed by code, how the panel and bar are UL listed, tested, etc. For example, it's been debated here whether you can add a simple mechanical slide lock-out for a generator to an existing panel when that slide isn't made by that panel manufacturer, hasn't been UL listed for use with that panel, etc. That slide just sits on top of the panel, doesn't even have direct electrical involvement. It just prevents two breakers from being "on" at the same time.
*I've never had a problem passing inspection with an interlock kit made by a third party. I provide a copy of the installation instructions when I submit the permit application so the inspector knows ahead of time what is being used and how it is to be installed.
So, thinking along those lines, we have a bar rated and listed for use with the panel as a ground bar. The installation instructions only say how to install it as a ground bar. Is it code compliant to use that for neutrals too? What's the current rating of that bar? What would an inspector say?
I would think you, being very concerned that anything potentially not being done fully compliant will come back to bite you in a lawsuit from a future owner, a denied insurance claim, etc would agree that there are issues other than what will work electrically. If he installs it, uses it only for grounds, moves some of the existing grounds from the current "neutral/ground bar" over to it, he can get more neutral connections and I think we all agree it's 100% code compliant. Using that added ground bar as a neutral bar, I'm not convinced.
*A phone call to the electrical inspector should resolve that concern.
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you bring up a interesting point.
you sell your home and later something bad happens due to your poor DIY fix.
Could the new owner sue you? or their insurance company? Is there a statute of limitations on how long you could be on the hook?
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wrote:

MORE haller's insurance insanity. Good grief!
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On Apr 27, 6:00 pm, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

it is a legit question....... i see you dont have a real answer...
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wrote:

Your life is run by your phobia of insurance companies, that's obvious. You really are a sad sack.
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On Apr 27, 7:34 pm, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

i have no phobia over insurance companies a buddy of mine from the 70s is a state farm agent, so i have a inside surce on some stuff.......
I do wonder how long a new owner can come over a old owner if something bad happens?
say the old owner installed the wrong type of gas line where it cant be seen, behind drywall.say clear plastic hose.
4 years later the home explodes when the plastic gas line finally leaks.....
I havent done anything to cause a problem but have seen lots of stupid DIY repairs......
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wrote:

Bullshit. You're constantly worrying about insurance and telling others they can't sneeze without having their insurance canceled, or worse.

Idiot.

Yeah, that's what everyone has been talking about. What a moron.

I'm sure you haven't done jack, or you'd be cowering in the corner waiting to be sued.
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