A River Runs Through It

[Oren]

You go Harry! A man of action .

-- Oren

"If things get any worse, I'll have to ask you to stop helping me."

[Lawrence]

425.http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/tvprograms/asktoh/showresources/episo...>

My good man, the show you refer to is very popular and you are right to say it is possible to do it yourself. Note: A professional plumber was onsite for that installation and that is what I recommended. Also, those shows are quite a lot more scripted than you think. They make it look easy because that is what they are paid to do. Laborers are often available off screen.

Yes, it is easy to throw a pump in a hole as long as your are comfortable with manual labor. You will have a higher likelyhood of a job that you will be happy with for years to come if you hire a real plumber and laborers.

Since your have called me out personally I have to tell you... I am capable of solving any plumbing problems that I have including a drywell if necessary. I answer questions in this forum, I do not post them. My goal is to be helpful rather than confrontational. This person specifically asked if I thought she could do it. She did not ask if is possible. I gave her good advice having a high likelyhood of success.

[Lawrence]

Thank you Donna for confirming my original answer. What you ask is easily doable and better than a wet floor every time!! Just go out and buy a pump. Many come with an adaptor for a garden hose. A permanent install would likley use poly pipe and you can get a better flow with a bigger pipe.

By all means put your energy into eliminating the source of the problem!! That should always be where you put your energy first. I'm sorry I don't have a solution for you without seeing the property but here are some ideas. Just thinkin out loud, OK?

Excavate and seal the old coal shute permanently where it exits the ground and inside the house both. Water coming in from the driveway and garage would have to be diverted at the street to keep it from coming in. Where I live we use a culvert to keep water from flowing down the driveway. If you are in a town then you may not have that option. A re-constructed driveway might possible divert the water elswhere.

[Jackson]

Yes, I don't know anything about B-Dry marketing spray on stuff, paint, etc. I was referring to the company that digs the interior trench, places piping for drain, covers it with stone and then cements back over it. If you have a block foundation they will also drill weep holes into the bottom of the blocks and install some sort of material to catch any water that might seep into or through cracks in the blocks/mortar. They will sell pumps attached to their system to discharge the collected water away from the structure if you need one, but if you can run a gravity drain your even better off. Here's a link to what I think is their website, but do your homework because the local shops are all independent franchisees:

There are others, Basement Systems, etc, but B-Dry is the big name in the business from my experience. Yes, any type of coating inside like paint is only a temporary (if at all!) solution.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

It looks simple because it is. A sixteen year old with a sledge hammer and shovel can do the excavation. It is not a job for a highly skilled plumber at $90 an hour, but some work for a $9 an hour teenager.

Really? I would not be. Why a pluber at all? This is not what I'd classify as tru plubing whee you have to solder joints, lay out the toilet rough in, repair a leak at a main valve, etc. This is running some PVC or even a hose. This type of job is a perfect traing ground for a DIY person that would like to eventually try plumbing. No pressure involved, no feeds to appiances,, no fancy hardware.

Never questioned your personal skills. I have to disagree with your assessment of the situation though. A plumber and crew will take this job to be about $500 to $800 plus materials instead of $50. If the OP is not comfortable doing the job, hire a handyman for $30 an hour instead of a $90 plumber.

[mm]

I thought you meant an experience plumbing company, as opposed to a minimally experienced one, and that the OP's doing it herself was out of the question.

I don't want to argue, but I didn't get this impression from your first post. And I think the OP should have understood just be looking at the job that manual labor would be involved, with a cement floor, and even more so after people recommended a jack hammer ("See if you can lift the lightest electric jack hammer they rent,... ") although these posts came after yours.

[mm]

Well, in that case, i have no idea how thick the cement is, especially if the ceiling was low to begin with.

The bottom of the door is below the surface of the floor? Regardless, you might be able to channel that water away before it gets under the door, or right after it does.

We had a double overhead garage door that let water into the garage, at one end of the door, even though it was pretty flat everywhere (no hill outside to cause it run in. It was just water spreading out) and in high school I wanted to put a rubber gasket under the door, but at the same time sort of doubted that would be enough. Or that it would lift up the door and let water in somewhere else. So I never did anything, but it didn't cause the problems yours is causing.

Do something about these two places and maybe you wont' need the sump pump. If you're not going to need the sump pump, don't drill a hole in the floor to find out how thick the cement is, or water will get in through the hole.

I think the idea was that the low spot was low enough that the sump pump could work while on the surface of the floor. I don't know how deep the water has to be before the sump pump starts to pick it up. Someoen said two inches. You could find out somewhere.

I have an image that your low spot is only 2 or 3 inches lower than the rest of the floor and only 3 to 4 feet across. You havent' said, so that's my image. If that is the case, the sump pump will run for 4 or 5 seconds and remove all the water around it, and then wait until more gathers. Wouldn't that mean that parts of the rest of the floor are also wet. Maybe they dry out faster after the rain stops, so that part of the floor doesn't bother you.

I have the same issue when my basement "floods", which is usually only a quarter inch or less. I use a wet dry vac and I just use the tube, no attachment, and it will vacuum leaving less than a tenth of millimeter, maybe even getting the water out of the pores in the cement, and then I have to move the vacuum tube somehwere else or wait until the water slowly gathers at the first place. I can identify a low space in my floor too, maybe a quarter inch low at most, and putting the hose there doesn't work any better than anywhere else except when I'm almost done.

I can't picture this area, but there is bound to be a way to dig it out, or seal it without digging it out without earth moving equipment. There are millions? of coal chutes that have been sealed after they aren't used, maybe just with a piece of wood or metal plate screwed on** and the edges caulked, but again, I have no real image of the situation in my head.

**Or some sheet metal formed into a box cover, by folding at the corners, sort of like wrapping paper is wrapped around a gift box. Again, I have no image.

ARen't you losing heat through this 12 x 12 inch hole? Again, my image of a coal chute.

[Lawrence]

I have answered quite directly the questions the OP asked. She asked if we thought she could do it and I answered her. She has since agreed with me. You seem to be more interested in replying to me that to the OP.

You can hire anyone to do a crap job that's for sure. There have been many, many, posts from people with sumps that don't work usually because they were installed by amateurs. Excavation and installation of the drain line is usually where they fail.

You are right to say anyone can do it. It is just that I do not reccomend it. She will be happier longer if you hire a pro

[Lawrence]

What I meant is open to quite alot of interpretation, isn't it?? I never said doing it your self was out of the question, never. The reason you are confused is because I answered the question simply and directly without adding any extra information. More posters should do the same, ANSWER THE QUESTION. Attacking my posts serves nothing. This person has already admitted that this is beyond her ability. This makes my answer a correct one. Some people seem to think that if the pros on TV can do it then anyone can. That is simply rubbish.

[Donna]

Just to clarify: it sounds to me that doing this correctly, which seems to involve a significant amount of plumbing, is beyond my abilities. If I have to hire a plumber to install drainage, I might as well get one guy to do the whole thing. Not that you asked, but... :) I'm pretty good at holes. I'm lousy at plumbing *in* holes. Sadly, Bob Vila, I'm not.

Thanks again for all of your input and advice. I'm leaning towards spending money on a pro to put in the sump pump and drains, and investing my energy in excavating and sealing the source of the leak: the coal chute. All of the suggestions and advice I've received in this thread make me think that might be the best approach, all considered. So thanks, everyone. :)

Donna

[Donna]

Actually, the low spot is where the coal chute enters, and the water gathers. Sealing the chute seems to be the first step, *then* if that doesn't solve the water problem (along with repairing the door or putting a lip on the outside edge to keep water from running under the door. Gee, can't wait to trip over that coming into the basement. :)

I can't really describe it -- it was such a bear to make *any* progress excavating it by hand, that I never was able to make enough headway to be certain about what i was looking at. What I really need is something like an really durable Archemedes Screw to get the coal and dirt and rocks out of the hole. A small backhoe won't do it. Nothing I can seem to rent is small enough and stable enough to get into that corner and dig that coal out.

Yes, lots. I'm less concerned with that than with the water draining into the basement room, though. One problem at a time. :)

Donna

[Lawrence]

It's funny you asked for a screw because there is something like that called an auger and it is indeed shaped like a screw. They are used to drill holes of any diameter in soil for fence posts and pole buildings. The large ones can be mounted to a machine (Bobcat). One and two person models are also available. Ice fishermen use the small ones to drill through the ice. All can be rented. Better to have a backhoe.

It may be possible for you to auger a hole as close as you can get or maybe several holes. Although you would have to finish the dig by hand it it would at least get the work started anyway. Four to six feet is the maximum depth for the augers I have seen. Better to have a backhoe.

If you have to excavate the coal chute anyway then it should be possible for the sump line to exit the house in the same ditch. The excavation for the sump line can far exceed the size of the sump it can be a big deal.

If you can extend the ditch to where the sump line can exit the soil then problem solved. Best practice would have the ditch go dowhill from where it exits the house but depending on your situation you might be able to cheat on this.

[Harry K]

Very good reasons not to attempt it but I was referring only to digging the hole and sticking a hose out to somewhere. The proper installation after the hole does take knowledge/experience. If you are hiring a job done, they might as well do the entire thing as digging the hole is the least part of the job.

Harry K

[Harry K]

one reasonable tool - a clamshell posthole digger. It goes straight down, open the handles, the blades pinch together and you lift out the load. That is a job for someone used to hard work as it gets you in the back rapidly.

Harry K

[djenkins6]

I put in a sewer backflow valve myself. Not the same thing but cutting the concrete floor starts the same :) I tried a concrete cutting disk in electric saw and the dust was horrible so I stopped after an inch. Then I went to local rentall place and he advised the biggest size of electric jack-hammer that you can plug into a 120v socket. I think it was Bosch, it came with a pointed chisel, and a flat chisel about 1" wide, I started the hole with the pointy chisel and it was really hard to get through to make a start. I even used a normal hammer drill to drill a series of quarter inch holes in a circle and 2 inches diameter to loosen it a bit. Finally I managed to make a 3 inch diameter hole all the way through the slab. after that I could switch to the 1" wide chisel and was able to gradually enlarge the hole until it was about

24" by 18". It took me a whole day. Then I rested a week (after all the shaking) and dug out the whole hole, cut my sewage pipes and installed the backflow valve.

The best bit was... the plumbers wanted over $1000 to do the job, it cost me $44 for jackhammer rental, $52 for the backflow valve, $10 for cutting disk (which I abandoned due to dust) and $10 for quarter inch drill bits.

David