I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20 amp circuit.
I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp breaker.
Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should be able to run the 14-2 anyway.
Thoughts?
I would do it over with 12 gauge wire. If you have some kind of short, the breaker won't shut off without 20 amps of current, overloading the wire and possibly setting you up for a fire. Or maybe liability to the future, long after you sell the place. Part of the satisfaction of doing a job is doing it correctly, and it will sit with you for years if you made a mistake. You never know what the future owner will do to that line distal to the device. I think it is probably against code, the small load notwithstanding. Alternatively you could change the breaker to a 15 amp device, if the line draw isn't too high.
This is Turtle
Two things here. Up your insurance on the house or redo it with # 12 wire.
TURTLE
A short circuit is many hundreds of amps, in fact, thousands of amps. The possibility of a short circuit has nothing to do with the reasons why #14 awg. should not be used.
Future liability isn't a bad reason to not do it, but it still falls way short of the better answer.
A better way to state this the satisfaction of doing the job to an industry standard, workmanlike manner.
Guilt works but, there's still a better answer.
It's ironic, the one and only real and true and legal reason, that it is against code, is the one you seem to give the least weight to.
Electrical work is governed by industry-standard trade practices and electrical codes. Not guilt, not future screwups that could make a current screwup dangerous, not the satisfaction of a job well done.
That falls under the catagory "not in a workmanlike manner."
No it's illegal.
Redo it. Right.
Jeff
The only other thought is to change the circuit breaker from a 20 to an 15 and you will be fine.
I did exactly the same thing. (Only in my case I was sorta innocent. I extended a circuit that had only one 15a outlet on it, so I naturally assumed it complied with code and was a 15a circuit. wrong...)
Anyhow, I couldn't see how they could ever use more than 15a on the circuit and replacing the 14 would be a PITA, so I changed to a 15a breaker.
If you can't do that you will have to upgrade the wire. Sorry.
It's not right, but it's not all *that* unsafe because it is a switched light/ceiling fan -- you don't have to worry about someone coming along later and extending the circuit with a bunch of additional outlets.
If I were doing it, I would use #12 wire. If I found out afterwards that I had accidently used #14 wire, I would leave it. If someone ever questioned me on it, I would claim that it was allowed by the "10 foot tap rule." (even if it's more than 10' to the ceiling fan, it is a lot less than 10' from the receptacle to the switch)
All that said, how hard would it be to replace it with #12 wire?
Putting on my asbestos underwear, Bob
(No offense, Bob; just yanking the chain:-) The 10 foot tap rule (and the 25 foot rule) don't apply here. Art 240-21 exceptions are for feeders under very strict conditions.
Jim
Thanks all...It will be replaced.
I know they don't apply. But if I was ever questioned accusatively about the 14 gauge wire, that's the bluff I would use. :-)
If you look up the ampacity of #14 THHN wire, I believe it is 20 amps, with a footnote that other sections of the code limit its use to 15A. (I think there's just not enough margin when using #14 at 20A) OP has a fixed load of just a couple of amps, and it won't be extended later because it is switched.
It's not done correctly and should be rewired, but if that's *really* hard to do I don't see a problem leaving it as is. If the extension ran to a receptacle or was nonswitched I wouldn't be as accepting of it (but even then it wouldn't be all *that* risky unless the cable was packed in insulation and couldn't dissipate heat.
Best regards, Bob
Since this is an academic discussion , if he ran Romex, the 90C conductors inside are limited to a 60C rating. (Go figger...) But you're right; I wouldn't have any qualms about the breaker protecting such a circuit during any kind of fault. Jim
If it was me, and it was a PIA to replace that wire, I'd put an inline fuse holder with a 10 amp 250 volt 3AG fuse inside that box with the receptical and feed the hot side of the 14-2 running from there to the switch through it. I'd personally feel quite safe with that.
Here's a fuseholder which ought to easily fit in a standard box behind the receptical:
run of a 20 amp
receptacle that was
that the
20 amp breaker.like I should be
# 12 wire.
The insurance will probably be denied when they find out about the 14/2 anyway.
Bob
This is one of those things that is illegal but not really unsafe. If this is a pure motor load you could use the 430 rules and find he is perfectly legal BTW. The 240.4(D) rule limiting small conductors to the next size is to protect receptacle outlets, where you have no control over the load, not fixed loads, although the code does not slice it that finely(except in articles like 430)
Your fine w/ the 14 . All you morons that insisted on 12, if you look at the wires in the fan you'll see that they're not 12, most are 16. Put a 15amp breaker in. only a few bucks.
That's a good idea, as long as the owner knew about the fuse. Can't you just see them wondering why the circuit was dead.
I thought about that just after I hit "send". My immediate thought was to tell the OP to put a note under the wall switch plate telling where the fuse was. That'd be a logical place for someone troubleshooting things to find it.
Jeff
This is Turtle.
No Happy, A home owner can do as he pleases if he does it and never sells the house without disclosing the problem before the sale. If he discloses it on the sale. he has no problem.
So Happy it's not illegal for a home owner to do it but only to a Electrician it is illegal. Let me ask you one here. Have you ever seen a home owner in court because he wired his own house wrong. The NEC is for professional and it is not for home owners to be made to follow. the Home owner should follow the NEC but there is no law that says they have to.
Happy your going to have to get out more and check on jobs and codes More.
TURTLE
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