The NEC code you was refering to say the #14 wire will cover 20 amps in certain conditions such as lighting, electric heaters, and none motor items being used. if they put a ceiling fan up there they will get could on the motor on it and refers to the foot note to not have a 20 amp ability and a 20 amp braker on it. It will fall back to the 15 amp ability of the wire and 15 amp on the breaker. this seem like splitting hairs here but when you start questioning the NEC codes usely you are later questioned by the State fire marshal about how did the fire start.
There was a State Fire Marshal that told me one time that if every house and building was wire and applied to the safe side NEC code to the letter. There would not be but 1/2 the fires they would have looking at.
I have a Uncle that his house burned to the ground because a friend of his run a #12 wire to his pump house and come out of the eves and did not put a wire hanger to hold the wire and not let it rub the boards of the eve. NEC said it should have a hanger on it and cost about 88 cents and the insurance company paid out $125K. Just watch when you want to push the NEC just a little.
OK so, installing non-code compliant electrical work is not a violation if it's done by a homeowner and it's disclosed upon the sale.
You're repeating yourself. It's legal for homeowners to install electrical wiring that does not meet the electrical code.
I suppose if this was being inspected, no violation could be issued either.
Yes. Although not literally because I wasn't actually in the courtroom while the homeowner was testfying. But I do know of a homeowner whose home burned down due which killed his tenant, his wife, and a number of family pets.
His home, an older Cape with a 2-car garage connected by breezeway had an apartment built over the garage and wired by the homeowner. He ran out of oil one night and gave the tenant electric heaters until the oil company could fill the tank the next day.
Because of his work, the wiring from the apartment through the breezeway, which was undersized for the breakers, heated up and started a fire which destroyed 2 lives and prompted his insurer to NOT pay for the loss of the dwelling as neither the additional uninspected wiring or the finished space above the garage were ever inspected.
For over a year his story was on the web, and he displayed a large sign on the now-vacant lot criticizing his homeowner's insurance company in an attempt to warn others, and direct passers-by to his website. The website unfortunately is gone now.
You are absolutely out of your freakin' mind. And if you really believed this crap, your reply to any homeowner with an electrical question would be "do whatever you want, homeowners don't have to comply with the NEC -only professional licensed electricians do."
This from a man who thinks a heat pump with a 40a 220v feed and it's backup duct heater requiring 60a 220v is a more efficient means of heating a home in the Northeast with a .14 KWH rate than natural gas or home heating oil.
I think you should stick to knocking tin. After you've read 90.2 a, paragraph
1, below...
(Assuming the OP's AHJ has adopted the NEC...)
ARTICLE 90 -- Introduction 90-1. Purpose (a) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity. (b) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance will result in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use. FPN: Hazards often occur because of overloading of wiring systems by methods or usage not in conformity with this Code. This occurs because initial wiring did not provide for increases in the use of electricity. An initial adequate installation and reasonable provisions for system changes will provide for future increases in the use of electricity. (c) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification nor an instruction manual for untrained persons.
90-2. Scope
Installations of electric conductors and equipment within or on public and private buildings or other structures,
Your again confussing a illegal act WITH a insurance company and the home owner defending off a law suite filed by the tenant's Family . It was not a Criminal trial but a law suite to collect money for damages. The Home owner never spent a day in jail but spent court time defending hiself.
If a electrician did it he would come under criminal charges. He is suppose to know better.
Turtle, you don't seem to understand. In any jurisdiction that has adopted the NEC, the Code *is* the law, and a violation of the Code *is* a violation of the law. You're trying to make a distinction that doesn't exist, except in those jurisdictions that haven't adopted the Code (or a substitute).
My understanding is that where I live, you have to get a permit for electrical changes. The changes will then be inspected. If you don't get the permit, you are breaking the law.
One question here. Why is the original circuit on 20 amp breaker in the first place? If it is part of an appliance circuit in a kitchen or dinning area?If so than changing the breaker is not an option.
Now for those of you who were quoting code and for those of you who think the code can be ignored (Turtle) I submit the following. NEC 2002
80.13 Authority
(4) Police, Fire, and other enforcement agencies shall have authority to render necessary assistance in the enforcement of this Code when requested to do so by the authority having jurisdiction.
80.23 (A) Violations
(2) Any order or notice issued pursuant to this code shall be served upon the owner ,operator,occupant,or other person responsible for the condition or violation,either by personal service or mail..............
(B) Penalties
(1) Any person who fails to comply with the provisions of this Code or who fail to carry out an order made pursuant to this code or violates any condition attached to a permit ,approval,or certificate shall be subject to the penalties established by this jurisdiction.
Now for those of you (Turtle) who think the code is a joke , I suggest you (Turtle) go pick up a copy and read further . If you read the above or read the code itself you will notice words like owner , occupant , person or persons. There very few places were the Code spcifically states Electrician. So yes the home owner is responsible. Lastly Turtle do the group a favor and pull your head in your shell and stop giving out bogus information.
In some areas I've found that when the remainder sq. ft. of a dwelling works out to just over 1800 watts, that some electricians just up one of the circuits to a 20a circuit instead of adding one more 15a circuit to cover the requirement.
The code is a minimum standard. There is no code that says bedrooms/livingrooms can't be 20a circuits.
There could be section of the country or citys that have a jail term for a home owner wiring his lights in his bed room the wrong way but in the state of Louisiana there is no jail time stated for wiring your own home wrong. He can wire it anyway he wants it. I have never heard of or know of any home owner ever spent a day in jail for wiring his own house like he wanted it. If you had a jail term for screwing up your own house. Half the population of the U.S. would be in jail. You can't tell a home owner how he is to wire his house unless he is using a contractor or electrician to do the work.
Here is one for you. Call up the city inspector of your city and tell him that your neighbor wired his bed room lites wrong and not to code. Then tell the inspector to go do something about it. He will say well who was the electrician or contractor on that job and you say the owner of the house did it. the inspector will tell you awwwww I'll try and talk to him and get him to correct it , but if he throws me out. I can't do anything about it. Try this for real and see what happens.
Here is another one for you. Did you know that a home owner can work on his freon hvac system all he wants and the E.P.A. can't say a word to him. He can be using freon 22 to blow his drive way off and you can't charge him with nothing at all. Now you may talk him into stop blowing the freon in the air if you can talk him out of it. Only E.P.A. licenced professionals or companys can go to jail for violations. Now without licence you can go to jail if your out working on for hire jobs and he don't own the house or property. He has to be working on somebody elses property to go to jail.
Check up on what a home owner can do and get back with me.
TURTLE
Now if a electrician for hire wired it wrong or not to code. They will burnt him at the stake.
I don't know about giving out bad advise, but IN the state of Louisiana a '' home own '' [ Not Public anything there ] can wire anything he wants and tell the inspector to kiss off. Now he can't rent it, have a business there, open to the public, or have any meeting of a group there at all or he comes under public regulations.
Now in other states you can have a code set for the Parish / County that states something different as to what you can do. I totally agree with you if you have these regulation. Louisiana DOESN'T HAVE IT and a home owner can do what he wants with his house. Now we are kind of backwards in the regulation business but Them's the gritts!
The only permitt there is in Oakdale, Louisiana 71463 on electric work there is if any work costing more than $1,000.00 + or a complete change out of meter pan and switch box you should get a permitt and have it inspected to see it meets the NEC code. Other than this they have nothing else. I'm speaking about my part of the country and not your. When you start stating regulations in your area , there is 10 other versions of what you say about your area that does not apply in other places. There is no one part of the country that will have the same regulation word for word but each will have there spin on it. Now I'm speaking about home owner only doing work and not trademan doing work. Trademen have to stick to the NEC to the letter.
Now if you would like to know. Your talking to a Louisiana State Electrical contractor in the HVAC and some Electric work if I like to. As the Contractor, i know what I can do and not do as to NEC as for hire and homeowner come under a different set of rules in the state of Louisiana. What is not good in New York might be good in Louisiana for Home owners that is.
If you don't catch the words Home Owner in this conversation you will not understand anything of what I'm saying here.
You need to explain what is wrong here before you can say there is or something wrong.
In Louisiana the NEC code is Appliable but Home owner can do as they please as long as they do the work by theirself and not get anybody '' for hire '' to work on the job. Other states have different regulation that may let the NEC code be inforced by a homeowner doing the work but Louisiana has no such ability of law enforcement, fire dept. , or any inspection dept. of any thing to enforce a home owner to wire his house a different way.
When you don't know the laws in a different state like Louisiana, you make mistakes like you just did by speaking out or being a band wagon member. Knowing what NEC code say has nothing to do with what the state laws are on appling the NEC code. State laws can over ride NEC if they see fit to do so for NEC is a Code and not a law of any kind.
Please tell me about the Louisiana State laws are on Home Owner doing their own work and Jail terms that Apply. Here is you a little secret here. There is none.
I never said anything about jail time; that's your own invention. But the fact is that in some jurisdictions, there can be pretty heavy fines. And I assure you that in those jurisdictions, the code enforcement authorities very certainly *can* tell a homeowner how to wire his house; they can also tell him he isn't allowed to touch it at all because he doesn't know what he's doing.
[snip]
Educate yourself to a new fact: what's true in your particular locality is not necessarily true everywhere. Just because _where_you_live_ there are no legal penalties (as far as you know) for a homeowner who violates the NEC, does
Bullshit. Using 14/2 in a 20A circuit is wrong. No two ways about that. It's a violation of the NEC.
That's been explained thoroughly already: the maximum overcurrent protection permitted by the NEC for 14-gauge copper circuit conductors is 15A. Period.
OK, fine, we'll assume you're right about that. That does not change the facts, which are:
1) 14/2 on a 20A circuit is a violation of the NEC.
2) The NEC in some places (many, actually) carries the force of law.
3) It is therefore illegal in those places to use 14/2 on a 20A circuit.
4) Just because Louisiana allows it, does not mean it's allowable everywhere.
Hellooooooooo..... Earth to Turtle.... *YOU* are the one who made the mistake, out of ignorance of the laws in other jurisdictions. *You* made the blanket statement that it's not illegal, ASSuming that what was true where you live was true everywhere else. News flash: it's not.
False. In many places, the NEC is adopted by law, in its entirety, as the electrical code for that jurisdiction, which means that _in_that_jurisdiction_ the NEC *is* the law.
It doesn't matter what the laws are in Louisiana. All that matters is what the laws are where the work is being done. You stated that using 14/2 on a 20A circuit is perfectly legal. This may or may not be true, depending on where the dwelling in question is located -- but the point is, YOU DON'T KNOW. And therefore you shouldn't be giving advice like that when you don't know what you're talking about.
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