HVAC Closets vs. Attic

First, Your designer probably isn't a HVAC designer... If he's ever removed an air handler, or even a component, out of an attic, he'd probably be able to tell you there is much added expense incurred in dealing with the conditions of the attic (temperature & space) & keeping the house clean as he moves out the old & in the new. Up here in MN we have basements for our equipment.

Second, if he or anyone, is recommending flex duct, make sure they can justify the added duct dimensions required. Flex duct needs to be up sized at least one dimension in order to allow for the static pressure increase inherent to the duct. I've been designing HVAC systems for over 12 years now & never allow more than 6' for the final connection.

My recommendation would be a main floor closet installation (in the best of all possible worlds it would be a straight shot in from the driveway side door that would allow a 2 wheeler clear passage to & fro) The mains would be sized for a trunk serving the upstairs from floor diffusers & the main floor from the ceiling. I'd then try routing the majority of return air from high wall (or ceiling) mounted return grilles. The main floor would also have high returns. Remember the warm air from the main floor will migrate to the upper floor, so a return in the stairwell will serve as a lower level return. A SA & RA main would also need to be run to the 1/2 story attic.

Since I don't have load calcs I'll assume your running between 600-750 per ton. If the floors are 2000\\2000\\1000 sq.ft. your looking for between 2-1/2\\2-1/2\\2 tons to 3\\3\\2 tons. (Have your local contractor verify these loads before signing anything.) In this case I'd install a unit on the main floor with ceiling SA & RA grilles & a 2nd unit on the 2nd floor serving floor & ceiling grilles as noted before. (of course the 2nd floor parking level would allow a straight shot as well LOL)

If most of the areas are on the main floor, I don't see a need for zoning, but a simple system should be easy enough to install for the kitchen & other spaces. Zoning the upper floor might be required for master bedroom suites, bedrooms, office areas, etc... but without plans I wouldn't venture a guess. My background has leads me to believe a well designed residential system, with proper installation (i.e. no flex) & a decent air balance, with a room by room heat loss & balance report, won't need zoning.

In an effort to produce the maximum amount of flames, I'll go further & suggest these options: If I were to zone 2 systems on 2 levels, as afore mentioned, I would install bypass dampers that dumped the air to the other level via grilles serving the space rather than directly back to the return of the zoned system.

I would consider installing an air source a heatpump to one of the 2 systems, probably the lower & use electric strip for heat in the other, that would all depend on electric & gas rates, & cost of up grade. Truth told I'd install HPs on both systems. High Seer cooling & staged heating...

I will never consider a constant volume blower in any home I'd build. I replaced a CV with a variable speed furnace a couple years ago & have been saving $15.00 a month on electric with the fan on constantly, which by the way is the best way to insure even temperatures throughout the home. On that I'll stake a claim.

Just remember, why would you want to cut corners on your future comfort... Why save $5000.00 to be uncomfortable in your $500000.00 home (prices may vary) Pay for decent equipment now by forgoing the granite counter top etc... In a few years you can "remodel" the kitchen by swapping Formica with granite, upgrading the faucets, etc... then the wife will be happy a 2nd time.

Now I'll don the firesuit & read the replies...

good luck geothermaljones st.paul,mn.

Reply to
geothermaljones
Loading thread data ...

None of the vendors in my area are stocking R8, even though it's code statewide. Most bldg dept's dont enforce it. I witnessed a remodel of a City bldg where I pointed out the specific codes to the building officials, and yet the R4.2 FSK remained.

Reply to
gofish

So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that zoning is probably more trouble than it's worth, in this case. Well, I can live with that, I suppose. About the only thing we'd really give up is individual control of some (or all) bedrooms, which would be nice, but not absolutely required.

No argument there. I expect that it's not going to be cheap to do it the way I want to. But, hopefully, if I do it the right way, I'll only cry once, as the saying goes.

Reply to
Longtime Lurker

So, is this another vote for zoning being more trouble than it's worth? That seems to be what everyone is saying, here.

Well, it hasn't been spec'd yet, but that would be nice!

This is, in fact, for a custom home, designed from scratch, which is why I'm soliciting advice here on what to tell the designer to include to make the HVAC work as well as possible. I'll look into the flex you mentioned, but I'm still leaning towards metal, if at all possible, and trying to get the designer to leave adequate room to install it.

I'm sure you're right, though, it's going to be hard to find a residential contractor to install metal. I've looked at a lot of new homes lately (to get design ideas), and I always peek into the attic. I've never seen anything other than miles of flex running every which a way.

Reply to
Longtime Lurker

That would be nice! I'd love it if, at least, the master could have it's own thermostat. Ideally, it'd be nice to give each kid one, also, but that might get a little pricey.

Reply to
Longtime Lurker

I tried to send this direct... it bounced. I'm not re-writing so let the flame begin.

I posted at the long end of the replies... after reading the lot If you want real zoning real comfort & few or no air handlers at all... Go to mehvac.com Mitsubishi Electric of America. Look at the PUMY series of HVAC equipment. The PUMY is an air source heat pump that can have up to 8 indoor units on a single 4 ton outdoor. The inverter drive operates from 30% to 130% (5tons) of capacity & is dirt cheap to operate in comparison to anything else on the market. The larger units PURY & PUHY's can handle up to 24 indoor units on a single outdoor. The PURY is a simultaneous heat & cool unit that's very efficient for commercial purposes. Neither the PURY of the PUHY are realistic for residential installs, but a couple PUMY units will suit your purposes perfectly. I have been working with these for a number of years & have had great performance results.

I hesitate to post this response in the newsgroup, as there are a number of folk that would scream of blasphemy. Most are air heads (force hot & cold air) & a few are wetheads (hot water chilled water or DX) A few might have heard of "mini-split" systems, but these are multiple minisplits for lack of a better word & I doubt many have used them. You might try posting a question in that regard.. I'd also "ping" Abbey Normal in the group. He's probably heard of / installed these as he's a tech in the islands... these systems are going in al over FLA. & points south. I've seen his posts around, but I haven't lurked this group for a while, haven't posted for years. Too many control freaks as far as I'm concerned. That said, find a good refrigeration contractor that's installed this system before & I'll guarantee you'll love it. Houston(?) is a perfect application as your heating design temps never reach the subzero's as they do here in MN. & the units can provide heating easily down to 15dF, a region I doubt Houston will rarely see.

This system will also win the praises of your designer as you'll need NO mechanical space, or any you do use, for ducted units, will easily fit in the soffit spaces you've already agreed upon. Depending on the layout of the home, you could have a separate zone for every room. I'll recommend an ERV for ventilation as well, but that's an easy fix. If your interested, I can contact Mitsubishi in Atlanta & ask them for a list of the best contractors in your area. I won't make a penny on it, but I hate to see a bad system put into a decent house. I can also guarantee you'll save some serious cash on cost of operation & it will pay for itself in less than 10 years, maybe less.. If I had a set of plans I could run a room by room load & cost analyze the whole thing. I can lay it out on cad if you like. That's what I do, as I stated in my post (the end of the longest thread) I've been doing it for years & I do it well... The only other thing I do well is snow ski, & I've done that since I was 2.

good luck geothermaljones st.paul,mn.

Reply to
geothermaljones

Since we're running a return duct system for ceiling mount grilles, I'd throw another, but not the only one, into the stairwell space. Proper airflow is vital & return is just as important as supply... nomatter what they say, it's a blower not a sucker.

The initial post stated a 2-1/2 story, so I'm assuming there's an attice office or some other occupied space. My kids would kill me if they saw me do that after i yekk at them for holding the fridge door open (in hopes of something better showing itself)

This is just a theory I've come across lately, but it make some sense. First, in my neck of the woods heating is the priority. In one of the previous posts someone mentioned bypassing cold air back to the unit & shutting down on high head... stated "too cold". Well, we've got just the opposite problem here. If a system is sized with multiple zones & only one calls, say the smallest one 150 cfm out of a 1000 cfm system. We'll be bypassing the (50%) of the non-calling zones, or 425 cfm of 120dF air. Mix that with the 70dF air via return grille & our mixed air will be about 90dF throw that through a 50dF heat exchanger & the over heats start popping. Same principle in the cooling mode, just different temps & sensors. By bypassing to the non calling system, operating on low airflow we're able to"dump the bypass, insure safer operation of the system & the btu's won't be wasted. This, of course, only works in a multiple system configuration, and is as I said a theory...

Your gonna love the response I posted just prior to this regarding Mitsubishi mini splits w/ multiple indoor units on a single outdoor... They're finally moving inverter drives & multi-minis into the residential market... Besides my Geothermal experience is in -20F winter design territory...

Thanks... I've been here for years, but quit posting about 8 yrs. ago. The flames were too... obnoxious?

Reply to
geothermaljones

A few inserted comments...

Agreed...

Agreed...

I sure hope you're not counting on that *ONE* stairwell return to be adaquite for the lower level.

Why are you heating and cooling the attic??? You do know they manufacture ventilation fans for attic spaces? Unless, this is not for storage only... then it's not really an attic now is it? :-)

Agreed, but how many residential systems are designed correctly? Sad to say... not very many. But if they don't know how to install a basic system, their zoned system will be that much further screwed up. :-(

WHY would you dump the SA into the other zone? It's already to temp, adding further heating or cooling to that zone is unnecessary.

Hell, why not install geothermal and be done with it altogether? :-)

Completely agree with this comment...

People just don't realize that it's easier to upgrade other parts of the home later.:-)

Not too bad...

Reply to
<kjpro

Yeah, but when was the last time you cried over the cost of something? Do you remember?

Now, when was the last time you bitched over something that was designed wrong? Today, yesterday... I bet it wasn&#39;t long ago. :-)

Reply to
<kjpro

Abby is still around... he pops in from time to time.

Reply to
<kjpro

Everyone seems to be in favor of that. Good!

Well, it indeed is not really an "attic" in the classic sense. There&#39;s about 600-700 sqft of living space there, which leaves precious little attic space left for storage. I&#39;m fighting to keep it, instead of having it stuffed full of air handlers and flex duct, which is what started this discussion.

Well, I&#39;m seriously considering it! We have a couple of acres, so we should be able to run slinky pipe, or do wells. We need a water well anyway, so maybe we could get a package deal from the driller. :-)

That&#39;s an interesting idea. I&#39;ll have to research those a bit more. My initial reaction is that we&#39;re going to have quite a number of smaller rooms, closets, and other spaces that we&#39;d at least like to have air circulation in, and it might be difficult to do that with a ductless system. But, I&#39;m fairly ignorant about them.

Me too. As a longtime lurker, I&#39;m trying to put to use what I&#39;ve learned and not cut those corners. It&#39;s tough, though, when the state of the are around here is to put &#39;em in the attic, and run flex everywhere. But, I&#39;m trying!

Reply to
Longtime Lurker

Well, I&#39;ve heard of them, but have never seen one in any of the houses we&#39;ve toured. So, I&#39;m pretty ignorant. Forced air is far and away the only thing you see down here. In Houston, AC dominates of course, and heating is usually an afterthought at best. Dehumidification is also a key consideration, and especially so for me, as I&#39;ll be 3/8 mile from a major river.

I&#39;ll definitely check it out.

15?! Yeah, we might see that once or twice...a decade. :-)

Yeah, I&#39;m sure he&#39;d like that!

Definitely looking at an ERV, anyway. And, from what I&#39;ve read, in a high humidity climate, it might make more sense to run completely separate ductwork for it. If so, then the ERV could work with anything.

Well, hold that thought! I&#39;m still at the beginning design stage, so it&#39;ll be a few weeks until the layout is finalized. But, I&#39;m trying to push the HVAC design considerations now so I can get these things addressed before it&#39;s too late. Also pushing for extra insulation, radiant barriers, low e windows, shading, attention to solar angles, etc. in hopes of taking as much heat load off the building as I can.

Reply to
Longtime Lurker

Money talks.

Get the best company you can find and tell them what you want... tell them you WILL NOT sacrifice quality!!!

Reply to
<kjpro

There are only a couple folks allowed to make that decision... You & your banker. If you builder or contractor start telling you... or your designer for that matter... find someone else. It&#39;s you name on the mortgage payment for the next 30 yrs.

If you decide on geothermal... igspha is in Tulsa & on the web. do a search for the heat pump consortium. both can put you in touch with installers & contractors. Make sure they&#39;re Igspha trained & certified. If your well driller has done geo great, if not you&#39;ll need another. The rule for geo installed is $1500-$2000 per ton for a loop field installed.

7-9 tons might get you a better rate but not much. Horizontal slinkys are great if your moving allot of earth anyways. You&#39;ll need 3-4&#39; wide 7&#39; deep 100&#39; long trenches 6-8&#39; apart for each ton.

I&#39;d seriously look at the mitsu first as I think it&#39;s gonna take a big chunk out of geo&#39;s market... If your going for a "close to green" building, geo & mitsu could get you there.... I&#39;ve never seen a LEEDs certified bldg with standard A/C.

good luck geothermaljones st.paul,mn.

Reply to
geothermaljones

The only rule of thumb is that most folks have 2 of them. XXXX number of dollars per ton is just that, a rule of thumb, and a real quick way for the contractor to go broke because he/she doesn&#39;t understand the business of running a business.

So could a *real* system that is correctly sized, correctly designed, and properly installed with the environmentally friendly R-410a refrigerant.

Reply to
Noon-Air

True, but since he&#39;s probably not going into the contracting business I doubt he cares. It&#39;s a realistic number in most areas, & the final bid from the contractor will include it. For a budget number it&#39;s sound...

The geothermal & the Mitsubishi systems use R-410A as well, & are as "real" as any conventional system out there. The only problem is, when in operation they save so much more money. I&#39;ll give you the up front cost argument, but a conventional multi unit zoned, multi story, ducted system, using variable speed blowers & air source heat pumps isn&#39;t cheap either. The initial cost difference will be paid back in a matter of years.

3-5 would be my guess but it could reach the 7-10 year range.
Reply to
geothermaljones

A friend of mine built a "mechanical room" in his house.He put his breaker panel,a/c, water heater,water softener,washer,and dryer in one room.The room had a floor drain,powervent and a large door to the outside.If I ever build another house I will probably do the same.

Reply to
digitalmaster

The only thing I don&#39;t care for "in this situation"...

Is having the dryer with the rest of the mechanical equipment. As nothing is worse than having lint all over everything!

Make damn sure that dryer vent is sealed!!!!!!!!!

Reply to
<kjpro

and that its not blowing on the condenser coils outside

Reply to
Noon-Air

You would like my attic Steve, about a degree warmer than the space below

Attic is sealed, white standing seam metal reflects the heat, styrofoam below the standing seam keeps the left over heat from making it into the attic. Maybe its R7 but it smokes fibreglass insualtion and a vented attic

Reply to
Abby Normal

HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.