home A/C and R-22 - cost per lb

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Just wondering what the A/C service companies are charging for R-22 these days. I called for service on our home A/C unit, and the basic showup charge is $85, but forgot to ask the R-22 per lb charge... Will call around tomorrow.
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As of April 26, 2013, R22 has drastically increased in price for the indust ry, if you you're lucky, you can work with your A/C tech and he'll sell it to you wholesale if there's labor work involved in the sale. It's still goi ng to run you $80/lb and even a small system is gonna set you back $500. Ho pe this is a helpful message and I don't know who is regulating the costs o f R22, but it's more than DOUBLED in the past year or so.
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Thank you, EPA! For meddling in the free market. . Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . .
As of April 26, 2013, R22 has drastically increased in price for the industry, if you you're lucky, you can work with your A/C tech and he'll sell it to you wholesale if there's labor work involved in the sale. It's still going to run you $80/lb and even a small system is gonna set you back $500. Hope this is a helpful message and I don't know who is regulating the costs of R22, but it's more than DOUBLED in the past year or so.
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On 4/26/2013 5:10 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

back $500. Hope this is a helpful message and I don't know who is regulating the costs of R22, but it's more than DOUBLED in the past year or so. Continuing to operate an old R-22 air conditioner is fiscally foolish when you realize that the new 18 SEER units use half the energy.
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lating the costs of R22, but it's more than DOUBLED in the past year or so.

While I agree that if it comes to any significant repair, it's time to scrap it, I don't think that translates into it being foolish to continue to operate an R22 system. It depends on the cost of electricity and how much you use it. If you're in a climate and/or situation where it's not used that much, say for a vacation house that you only use occasionally, I don't think it's foolish to keep operating it. Also to justify the much higher cost of an 18 SEER compared to say a 14 SEER unit, you'd have to have high energy costs and/or a lot of usage. It can cost $1500 more for one of those 18 SEER.
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

About the price increase, see here:
http://www.acbyj.com/r-22priceincrease/
==================February 15th, 2013 R-22 refrigerant (freon) price Increases in 2013
The price of R-22 refrigerant has skyrocketed in the last 6 months. Due to government regulations to “phase out” the production of “ozone depleting” chemicals like Freon, production has continued to decrease and has costs to skyrocket. R-22 refrigerant is 4 times more expensive than it was just 6 months ago and is expected to continue to climb.
Due to this, contractors have bought it at an alarming rate and supplies are greatly reduced. “Panic Buying” have forced some vendors across the country to limit the amount of R-22 contractors can purchase in a month.
As the cost of R-22 rises, the cost of the new replacement Freon, R410a continues to drop. It is a simple case of supply and demand.
Federal regulations call for a 90% reduction of production of R-22 by 2015 and to be completely obsolete by 2020. What this means to consumers is outrages Freon related repair costs and eventually no choice but to replace their HVAC equipment.
Most air conditioners manufactured before 2010 us the old R-22 refrigerant.
While a R-410a unit can just as easily develop a leak as an R-22 unit can, from vibration, rust, stress cracks our sub-par welds etc., without warning, the cost to replace R-410a is a fraction of R-22. ================= Jon Edwards wrote:

I thought that R-22 was more efficient than R134 or R410 (less of a load on the compressor to achieve the same heat-transfer effect).
In any case, it's looking more and more that home owners are going the DIY route by recharging their leaking home R22 units with propane (and I know that you so-called pro's in alt.hvac will just love it when that happens).
And I don't see why not, given that the auto-ignition temp. of these refrigeration-grade propane mixes is higher than R134 and R410, and from an electrical energy usage standpoint, using propane seems to cut that down by 40%.
What I don't really understand is the safety hazzard issue of using propane.
If you have a small leak (the sort of leak that is typical in an HVAC system) it's going to take days or weeks for the system to de-pressurize to ambient pressure, and the relatively small amount of propane in the system is going to dissapate in the typical home during that time (if the leak is inside the house).
If you have a furnace malfunction (blower-motor burn-out, fan-belt breaks, over-heat cut-off malfunction) then again would you ever have a condition where a run-away plenum temperature would bake the evap coil to the point of combustion?
Could you get combustion happening *inside* the compressor due to some sort of mechanical compressor malfunction?
Some sort of accidental dammage to AC lines (either inside or outside the house) could release all of the propane within minutes or seconds - is this the combustion hazzard that the HVAC industry / gov't is worried about? Is this the only practical safety issue with using propane for home A/C recharging?
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If propane and air are mixed in the system, the explosion can be dangerous. AC systems are designed for totally non flammable refrigerants. if there is some air in the system, and the happy home owner adds propane, the resulting explosive mix can, well, explode.
Yes, you can get sparking inside the compressor. . Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . .
wrote:
In any case, it's looking more and more that home owners are going the DIY route by recharging their leaking home R22 units with propane (and I know that you so-called pro's in alt.hvac will just love it when that happens).
And I don't see why not, given that the auto-ignition temp. of these refrigeration-grade propane mixes is higher than R134 and R410, and from an electrical energy usage standpoint, using propane seems to cut that down by 40%.
What I don't really understand is the safety hazzard issue of using propane.
If you have a small leak (the sort of leak that is typical in an HVAC system) it's going to take days or weeks for the system to de-pressurize to ambient pressure, and the relatively small amount of propane in the system is going to dissapate in the typical home during that time (if the leak is inside the house).
If you have a furnace malfunction (blower-motor burn-out, fan-belt breaks, over-heat cut-off malfunction) then again would you ever have a condition where a run-away plenum temperature would bake the evap coil to the point of combustion?
Could you get combustion happening *inside* the compressor due to some sort of mechanical compressor malfunction?
Some sort of accidental dammage to AC lines (either inside or outside the house) could release all of the propane within minutes or seconds - is this the combustion hazzard that the HVAC industry / gov't is worried about? Is this the only practical safety issue with using propane for home A/C recharging?
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On 04/27/2013 09:55 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I would think that it would be possible for a leak to not only let propane out but let air in if it's on the low side, making that a not unlikely scenario. It should be perfectly safe IF THERE ARE NO LEAKS but do you want to bet that that is never going to happen on your system?
nate
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I don't have any verifiable proof, or examples to point to. But, I'm not going to volunteer to have my AC system exploded for science.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . .
I would think that it would be possible for a leak to not only let propane out but let air in if it's on the low side, making that a not unlikely scenario. It should be perfectly safe IF THERE ARE NO LEAKS but do you want to bet that that is never going to happen on your system?
nate
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On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 11:55:57 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"

propane. Not that I would recommend using ANY of them on a refrigeration/ac system.
The big problem with propane, in my opinion, is it is a "heavier than air" flammable gas - so if it leaks in your house, and the AC coil/lines are in a asement, the gas may collect rather than disburse, and you have a very real explosion/fire hazard.
Used in an automotive AC system, unless it leaks in your below-grade or basement-connected garage, the hazards are significantly reduced.
If it leaks into the car when you are driving the mercapitan will get you out of the car before it gets dangerous (before it reaches lean explosive limit)
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On Apr 27, 12:49 pm, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Imagine trying to explain a AC fire in your hme from a DIY propane gas in AC. Your insurance company will be interested:(
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wrote:

Here we go again, Haller's insurance insanity.
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Bubba says "Doan no nuttin bout no EPA, but cooter said hit werkd ril gud in hiz sistim." . Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . .
news:55dc8758-4d93-4161-a3ac-
Imagine trying to explain a AC fire in your hme from a DIY propane gas in AC. Your insurance company will be interested:(
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What is "mercapitan" and is it used in propane for heating and cooking and such? Never seen that word, and online dictionary doesn't have it. . Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . .
LOTS of so-called "drop in replacement" refrigerants are mostly propane. Not that I would recommend using ANY of them on a refrigeration/ac system.
The big problem with propane, in my opinion, is it is a "heavier than air" flammable gas - so if it leaks in your house, and the AC coil/lines are in a asement, the gas may collect rather than disburse, and you have a very real explosion/fire hazard.
Used in an automotive AC system, unless it leaks in your below-grade or basement-connected garage, the hazards are significantly reduced.
If it leaks into the car when you are driving the mercapitan will get you out of the car before it gets dangerous (before it reaches lean explosive limit)
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On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 21:15:23 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"

Ethyl Mercaptan - the odorant in propane and natural gas

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G, doan no. . Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . .
Ever try typing a word you don't know into geegle?
Stormin Mormon wrote:

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Ever try typing a word you don't know into geegle?
Stormin Mormon wrote:

Comon Chris the word is few other it's cool man, do you digit man you need to to NYC bronx section.
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Stormin Mormon wrote:

Are you just clowning around, or have you really never heard of mercaptan?
It's what they add to natural gas to make it smell like rotten cabbage so you can smell gas-line leaks.
They apparently also add it to refrigerant-grade propane.
And by the way, propane is apparently approved for use in commercial refrigeration plants.
The way things are going with the drive to increase energy efficency in consumer devices and appliances, it's really only a matter of time when residential AC units are going to start using propane. I mean jesus christ - natural gas is already being pumped into and combusted in millions of homes, in furnaces, water heaters, stoves, dryers. It's not like we don't know how to handle flamable gases in residential appliances.
The amount of gas circulating in a residential AC system is a pittance anyways, and anything short of a burst pipe is not going to be a hazzard.
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wrote:

not supposed to run somewhere between 40 and 85 PSI??? Not much change of getting ANY air into a system that has enough gas in it to function at all. In fact virtually impossible to get air into anything but an OPEN system (one with a severe leak or one with a slow leak that has existed for a long time - system totally non-functional)
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