Re: What's The Latest On Roundup Herbicide?

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If you don't cut up corpses for a living, you're toast.
-paghat the ratgirl
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
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Why do you keep running away, paghat? C'mon, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Who do *you* work for?
What are *your* scientific credentials?
Oh, and of course my challenge stands.
One, just one, scientific article in a peer-reviewed journal that claims to show that Roundup is dangerous to humans when used as directed. Just one. One teeny itsy bitsy article.
All the personal attacks in the world can't change the fact that you can't come up with a single article.
billo
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That's not an answer. *Who* do you work for?

Oh, don't sell yourself short. Please, go ahead and list your scientific credentials.
billo
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On 19 Aug 2003 03:02:54 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@radix.net (Bill Oliver) wrote:

Hey Billo believe it or not the rest of the world somehow manages to stumble it's way through life without a Phd and even make reasonable decisions. After all you continue this discusion all the while remaining clueless.
"Acts of creation are ordinarily reserved for gods and poets, but humbler folk may circumvent this restriction if they know how. To plant a pine, for example, one need be neither god nor poet; one need only own a good shovel. By virtue of this curious loophole in the rules, any clodhopper may say: Let there be a tree--and there will be one"
Aldo Leopold
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On 19 Aug 2003 12:39:33 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@radix.net (Bill Oliver) opined:

I know many people with degrees who are social idiots. Literally.

You are starting to sound very creepy.
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Oh, I am sure you do. But this is a *scientific* question, not a popularity contest. Or is your argument that "Roundup is toxic because I am the most popular person on the block."
Well, now that you mention it, that *does* seem to be the gist of y'alls argument.

As opposed to Tom's dragging it in as a topic and what paghat as been writing about forensic pathology?
Funny thing, that. It wasn't "creepy" when you guys decided to make and issue of it. It's only "creepy" when I request equal disclosure.
What kind of secrets are you guys hiding? *That* is "creepy."
billo
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On 19 Aug 2003 13:40:21 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@radix.net (Bill Oliver) opined:

Oooo, a scientific question. No such thing as perfect science. Again and again I will tell you that the agchem industry has many of their facts eliminated altogether from their *scientific, peer reviewed data* and I don't trust it. Not for a long, long time.

I read about one sentence in paghats rants and my head spins. She is either way too intelligent for me, or way too full of shit. Either way, I can't get through much more than a sentence.

I have no secrets. I won't post my work address to you, if that's what you mean. I work at home. I'm a house wife. A house frau. A gardener, retired, free of working at the wheezing fluorescent tubes of the work place.
However, I stand on solid ground that, Roundup is not safe as table salt and indeed does cause damage to soil where VAM fungi live and without fungi, many plants could not exist. But do use it, drink it, baths are good too. Just not in my house, please.
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Well, thanks for filling us in on your ethics, but you still have not provided any of the information you think is so important.
You have gone to great lengths about the corrupt scientific establishment, your contempt for Pathologists, etc. You have shown us how important it is that the world know *my* employer, *my* profession, and *my* credentials.
But when I ask you the same questions, you run like a cockroach exposed to the light. Why is that?
Tell me, paghat, who is your employer?
Tell me, paghat, what are your credentials, other than your claimed and demonstrated skill at deceit?
And, of course, my challenges stand. One teensy, itsy-bitsy, scientific article in a peer reviewed journal that claims to show that Roundup is dangerous to humans when used as directed. One. Just one. Uno. Ichi. Un. Une. Ein. Um.
You get the idea.
Oh, and I'm still waiting on the "table salt" quote. Or a retraction. But I expect to wait. You don't have the ability to provide the former, and lack the integrity for the latter.
billo
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snipped-for-privacy@myrealbox.com wrote:

What a spaztard lizard. You may be abused, but you're not a language. And I was a medical editor, not a flunky copyeditor. Even if I were to copyedit it wouldn't be on UseNet -- roughdrafted at 100 words per minute, hit post. You may rewrite four times & your blatherings still don't make sense, but I can be totally wise even with typos, all in one swell foop. Plus, you wannabe writers trolling from misc.writing inevitably prove Mark Twain's dictum: "Who can spell can't write." Maybe if you can break your addiction to hanging out in misc.writing with people who have never learnred how, & so are always wondering why they've never been able to publish anything professionally, you might change your context sufficiently to finally learn the difference between those of us who do, & folks such as yourself who simply can't.
-paghat the ratgirl
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
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Hey! snipped-for-privacy@netscapeSPAM-ME-NOT.net (paghat)! It's been a long time! How ya been? Last time i saw you, you were posting in rec.gardens and wrote this:

I highly doubt this. You've displayed the ability to copy words from reports, but your ability to evaluate what they say is notably lacking.
I'll also note your reported lack of ethics.
No, you were no medical editor. You were a shill. A monkey who could type what she was told to type.
There's nothing to be proud of, there.
--
gekko

If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?
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Except, of course, I never falsified data, and I never helped publish an article with falsified data.
In contrast to you.
billo
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Good for you. One very OCCASIONALLY finds actual surgeons posting in the medicine newsgroups, but mostly a bunch of dumb farts who think they can cure cancer with echinacea, & one VERY occasionally finds working writers in the "writers" newsgroups, but mostly just wannabes who reinforce each others amateur standards & beliefs. It's generally to be expected that anyone in a How To Write Good newsgroup will speak loudest about How To Write Good when they've never figured out how to go about it at all, beyond the utterly democratic context of usenet, or posting their crap at websites. And frequently their delusions & ideas are so off the mark that they doom themselves through their own poor choices & mistaken beliefs, & really won't like the HONEST answer to such questions as "how do I get an agent" and other wannabe obsessions -- thus never can get can count working writers among their peers. But if they're talentless anyway, perhaps no reason to give them the correct information. Even so, misc.writing, in among the flamers & fools, is sometimes very comical (on purpose even), & a few genuinely charming people, with or without delusions of actual talent.
One of the books I was contracted for, which I turned in, was paid for it & spent the money, but which has been pending now for YEARS, was a guide to miniature vegetable gardening in finite innercity spaces -- it was such a cute book with tiny pictures of tiny veggies growing in tiny gardens, I just loved working on that project. It got to the point of galleys, & proof flats for the cover illustration -- then illness struck the publisher & they went from ten books a year to less than one a year. Every time I think about that little book I wish I could get the rights back as it would be so easy to sell again. But alas it was work for hire & I cannot just withdraw it from that publisher, even if they never do finish the project.
It's been years since I've had to garden in an ultra-finite space & even the yards I have now sometimes seem too limiting since I can't do such things as collect a whole bunch of beech tree cultivars, which I would certainly do if I had a lot of land. I wish I could plant a flowering understory in a surrounding piece of property that was half wilderness. I just want to spread out & spread out, & collect more trees as well as small things . . . if someday when I'm a feeb and have to garden only in a window box in the old folks home, I suppose I'll readjust, but cannot at present quite imagine it. If I ever sell the house we own now, the only thing that would make the disruption rewarding would be if the next place could be gigantic garden time.
A regular here, Valkyrie, went from big gardens to patio gardening, & her experiences shared in this group have many times gotten me thinking about whether I would get depressed about scaling down or just maximize the experience of smaller space & get just as much pleasure. People do adjust to much tougher things.
-paghat the ratgirl
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
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paghat wrote:
<...>

Must have been a huge disappointment for you. And it sounds like a great book -- are you sure there's no way you can resurrect it? Since the publisher, in effect, defaulted on your agreement, it would seem that you'd have some options of getting it published. It's such a shame to just let the project die.
<...>

I sometimes miss having a big yard where I can plant huge perennial gardens ... but frankly, I don't miss the work involved. (Does that make me a gardening misfit?) But I do get so much enjoyment out of all the flowers I'm raising in planters and pots. Hey, wanna peek? Here:
http://www.pjparks.com/citygarden.htm
PJ
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Unfortunately by the terms of work for hire an author loses all rights. Work for hire should never be done. Author should always retain copyright. In this case the idea wasn't strictly mine & I'd had such great dealings with the publisher on two other projects (and did retain copyright on those books since they were my ideas from the start). The publishers became dear friends, & when one of them got extremely ill, I could hardly add insult to injury demanding rights I'd signed away. I mentioned the orphaned book to an editor at Sasquatch Books not to re-sell it, just talking about projects that went astray, & she immediately asked to see the manuscript -- but it just wasn't possible to do that legally & with decency. I may someday ressurect the project under a different title and write a whole new text, as the original text was keyed to available seeds, and many of the available varieties have changed since. But for so long as the publisher is issuing even a book a year, I feel it would be wrong to step on any toes.

Nice pot jungle in those photos. I see lots of room to stack & expand. I notice no windowboxes for instance. If attaching them is banned by the condo they could still be stacked/freestanding to look like window boxes. I see you go for floweriness -- I'd add a few things woody that might be only leaves most of the year, then flowers packed in under, partly so that there's something left over in winter. You could also train shade-vines through the living room or over the bedboard. Could have a small worm-compost in the kitchen. Hey, maybe i COULD readjust if I had to.....
-paghat the ratgirl
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
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snipped-for-privacy@netscapeSPAM-ME-NOT.net (paghat) wrote in message

gardening has been hard this year with the weird weather we're supposed to have a sunny day for the first time in >20 days (but i guess the weather has been equally dreary also elsewhere?) my parents are going to help me clean my pond tomorrow i have empty it (2500 gallons), catch all the fish, move them to a holding tank, vaccuum the sludge from the bottom, scrub the liner, refill, replace fish.
i will be doing all the cleaning and associated labor dad will be supervising mama is vice president in charge of catching fish-- times like this i wish i had a video camera
mk5000
"First century - Spoke by turn (1 Cor. 14:27) Today - All speak together today in mass confusion First century - No interpreter? - Silence (1 Cor 14:28)"--sensei shaolin
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Monsanto has been caught out lying so many times even in courts of law, there's just no question but that they are never a source of truth. Examples on the record: When Monsanto lied to the people of Sturgeon Missouri about the "safety" of chemical spills, they ended up losing the court case & paying over $16 million dollars. What did they lie about? Everything. A deadly chemical gets spilled, they sent in their "experts" (including Frank Dost) to conduct "tests" and "studies" so that they could "prove" the chemical spill couldn't possibly hurt anyone, & then they published as "science" fraudulant studies, & hired spin doctors to interpret the false science in simpler terms for a population they clearly regarded as gullible hicks.
They were sued for this fraud & lost because it was discovered their "expert" assessment of the chemical spill dangers was incorrect on the following counts:
1. Lung cancer deaths should have been reported 143% higher than Monsanto claimed.
2. Genitourinary cancer deaths, 108% higher than Monsanto claimed.
3. Bladder cancer death rate, 809% higher than Monsanto claimed.
4. Lymphatic cancer death rate, 92% higher than Monsanto claimed.
5. Death from heart disease, 37% higher than Monsanto claimed.
Sworn testimony during the trial proceedings, which had been moved to Illinois, showed that for a period of 30 years Monsanto Chemical Company manipulated, falsified & concealed study results on deaths & cancers associated with their chemical products. If they'd lie for 30 years about that, how long will they also lie about RoundUp? Another 30 years? Forty? Forever? As long as they exist, no doubt.
As for business risk, Monsanto's entire future hinges on the INCREASING marketability of RoundUp in tandem with glyphosate-resistant crops no one but themselves can provide. From their point of view they are "far too businesslike" to ever tell the truth, since the goal is to increase sales of a product that shouldn't be sold at all.
-paghat the ratgirl
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
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As opposed, of course, to the hired guns put on by the plaintiffs.
You know that your scientific case is lost when you resort to quoting torts as your basis for "truth." The bottom line is that class action torts are not a test for truth in any sense of the word. Junk science is much more often introduced by plaintiffs than defendants in torts, and the courts are incapable of telling the difference.
In federal courts, the admissibility of "scientific testimony" rests on the whim of the judge. While the judges are supposed to use certain criteria (called Daubert criteria for federal cases), most judges are largely illiterate when it comes those criteria. One recent study showed, for instance, that only 6% of judges understood the concept of "falsifiability," only 4% understood what "error rate" meant, and only 71% knew what "peer review" meant. (Gatowski, et al. "Asking the gatekeepers: A national survey of judges on judging expert evidence in a Post-Daubert World." Law and Human Behavior, Vol 25, 433-458, 2001). As I have noted, what gets in as "scientific testimony" has little to do with science (Oliver, WR, "Truth and Beauty in Forensic Medicine." ACM SIGGRAPH Special Session "Truth Before Beauty: Guiding Principles for Scientific and Medical Visualization." 2003).
When it comes to scientific arguments, arguing that something is "understated" by X% because of a *tort finding* is ludicrous. It's like malpractice suits in medicine and the actual presence of negligent care -- there is no relation. Most malpractice suits are made in the absense of negligent care (e.g. most suits are baseless, regardless of the finding), and most people who receive negligent care do not sue. Put a sick kid on the stand and somebody will be putting out money -- regardless of the merits of the case, and regardless of whether it's a malpractice suit or suit against a corporation.
And, as far as the *science* goes, Monsanto is not lying about RoundUp. The studies paghat dismisses are not Monsanto studies, and they are published in peer-reviewed journals.
billo
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Yes, yes, independent peer reviewed science is not as good as Monsanto's famously fabricated "science," & testimony under oath is not as good as testimony from Monsanto PR flacks. I get ya.
Idle curiosity, you're not the same William Oliver who has chaired Monsanto love-fest symposia through the American Chemical Society, inviting primarily Monsanto and DuPont researchers as speakers, persistently giving recognition dinners & awards to Monsanto workers & retirees, gives out chemistry awards funded by Monsanto, & "Fund"amentally kisses Monsanto's butt in order to get them to write out more checks for non-independent research?
I don't really think that's you, as I've never regarded you as that sneaky & have enjoyed so many of your posts for, what, three or for years?, but did want to be sure that in this case you're honestly misguided rather than willfully & as a matter of professional courtesy repeating by rote so many Monsanto whoppers right down their "safe as salt" cliche & their idea that testimony under oath is not as reliable as their PR people, that people concerned about the environment are not as truthful as people profiting by selling toxins, & any science not paid for or conducted by Monsanto can't possibly be correct but their press releases are the real truth.
-paghat the ratgirl
--
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"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
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Except, of course, that independent peer reveiwed science demonstrated no danger of RoundUp at reasonable doses.

Oh, please. No, if such a person exists at all.
billo
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On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:44:08 -0400, paghat wrote:

I suppose you only believe fake green science from the likes of Needleman, Gould, Epstein, or Landrigan. And what about that big green PR machine that calls itself Greenpeace? They just keep repeating the same lies till people like you start to believe them.

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