)(*&*^&$%&^(& "heirloom" tomatoes

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Higgs Boson said:

Sometimes you just have to say something, if only for the lurkers and the undecided. You can't leave things *always* unchallenged. I know facts will never convince someone who want to believe fancy. (Facts can even make them cling even harder to their beliefs.)

comprends.
Videogame reference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOgkG8PI1eM


RE: menus. That's what good wait-staff are for.
Heirlooms tomatoes, I go for color and texture. Two of my favorites are 'Kosovo' (big, meaty, oxheart, very few seeds) and 'Aunt Gertie's Gold' (golden orange, meaty, beefsteak, comparatively few seeds).
http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Kosovo http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Aunt_Gertie%27s_Gold
I've had poor results with the various Brandywine strains and find the bi-colored Heirlooms ('Pineapple' and various other names) are often quite, hmm, watery and overly sweet, though they can be very, very pretty tomatoes.
http://www.localharvest.org/pineapple-heirloom-tomato-seeds-C15061
This year's new-to-me trial variety is the Burgess Stuffing tomato.
http://hudsonvalleyseeds.com/Red-Burgess-Stuffing-P3079500.aspx
--
Pat in Plymouth MI

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Todd said:

Way to project, Todd. Text-book example, even!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
It's hard work living in a world of your own creation, but I'm sure it has it's rewards!
Meanwhile, yesterday the radio station I listen to featured a report on how Michigan agriculture is changing due to longer (if more erratic) growing seasons.
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Pat in Plymouth MI

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On 07/15/2014 07:25 AM, Pat Kiewicz wrote:

Hi Pat,
Far better explained by the 206 year solar cycles than Global Warming.
So far, no one has been caught falsifying data in the solar cycle theory, as they have in the Global Warming fraud.
And speaking of changing weather patterns, did you hear about the Chinese tour ship that got caught in the ice down in Antarctica? They based their trip route on Global Warming predictions. Ooops. (Global Warming model suck big time, as they found out the hard way.)
This should be science, not politics and/or religion. New things are discovered all the time. In science, todays truths are tomorrows false hoods. When folks start using Political Correctness to push their theory, you have got to wonder. And especially wonder when they start using religious terms like "denier".
Also, the way science is suppose to work, if you have a pet theory, you go out and prove it. If your observations do not match your models, then you scrap it and start over. None of the models for Global Warming have panned out. Time to scrap it and start over. It is not time to falsify data.
Look at it this way, if I think the moon is made out of swiss cheese, I have to actually prove it to you, not the other way around. You do not have to prove that it is not to me. And I certainly should not falsify data to make my point.
-T
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Todd wrote:

Rarely do I use the auto-flush feature, but some people just beg for it.
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On 07/17/2014 02:27 PM, Not@home wrote:

See if I share any of my moon Swiss Cheese with you!
:-)
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I can't find anything about that. Do you happen to have the name of the ship? The closest I can find are reports of a Chinese icebreaker that got stuck during the rescue of a Russian scientific team.

Um, check the foil in your colander. You don't use *climate* models to plan a route. You use current conditions for that.
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On 07/15/2014 12:10 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:

You are right. It was a Russian research vessel that got stuck and a "Chinese" ice breaker that also got stuck trying to rescue them. Most of the passengers were Australians -- tourists wanting to see the effects of Global Warming, I presume.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/27/world/antarctica-ship-stuck/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/03/world/antarctica-ship-stuck/index.html

You would think. When you believe things as Axioms, it is hard to think otherwise. Russians tend to follow the solar sun spot cycles and not Global Warming. So some really bad judgment all around.
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Drew Lawson said:

I wonder what other misapprehensions he has (beyond the idea that we can provide sufficient calories for 7 billion plus humans without the use of grains, potatoes and a several starchy tropical crops). Deniers often hold an assortment of odd beliefs.
<http://www.theguardian.com/environment/planet-oz/2013/oct/02/climate- change-denial-skeptics-psychology-study-conspiracy-theories>
Of course, as in the case of tobacco's association with cancer, their are vested interests doing everything in their power encourage doubt and denial. (Not that it takes much of a push to encourage people *not to take action* when taking action is difficult or involves personal sacrifice.)
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Pat in Plymouth MI

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On 07/16/2014 07:15 AM, Pat Kiewicz wrote:

"Colarder?" Everyone knows you just wear the foil on your head as a hat. And, you have to make sure it is a tin foil hat, not aluminum. Silly. :-)

You are misrepresenting me. My point was that grains are causing damage to our health (carbohydrate poisoning or T2 Diabetes).
What I was proposing was to find solutions around the problem by increasing the fat content and decreasing the carbohydrate content through hybridization. And, were available, switch aways from grains. (I have no problem finding lots of other low carb, high fat food to eat, but I realize other in different countries may not.)
I even showed how the Philippines were trying to get off rice due to it link to diabetes to a special strain of corn (IPB Var 6) to try to solve the problem. Someone called me a liar over it too. Never apologized either when I provided voluminous documentation either.
And, I also pointed out that excess carbohydrates are addictive, so if will be hard to get folks off them, even when alternatives were available. It surely did not, until I hurt myself.
And, if your point was the it would be a major undertaking, then we are in agreement. Grains are cheap sources of sugar and are stable for long periods of time at room temperature too.
But, if your point is that it shouldn't be done, then we have a major disagreement on our hands. Not to mention a moral and humanitarian disagreement. I will take your word as to which it is and not put words in your mouth.
Humanity has had challenges like this before. We will prevail. Do you see any complaining about the health hazards of horse s*** all over New York city anymore? It was a HUGE problem at one time. We will prevail.

Rules for Radicals. Accuse other of what you do.
By the way, those claiming to be scientists that got caught fabricating evidence are worse than any conspiracy types.

Speaking of denial. HEALTHY CARBS! Oh there are no special interests invoiced in food like substances. No, none at all, none I tell you!
Hi Pat,
I think the moon is made out of swiss cheese. You have to prove to me otherwise. And any evidence you provide to me, I will consider a heresy. You moon cheese deniers are just conspiracy theory nuts!
Oh the moon rocks brought back showed no sign of milk products? It is because it is locked up in the moon's core, where you can't measure it, you heretic denier.
I DON'T HAVE TO PROVIDE YOU PROOF. THE SCIENCE IS ALREADY IN ON THIS ONE. NOW IT IS TIME TO ACT. GIVE ME YOUR LIFESTYLE AND YOUR FREEDOM!
-T
It is okay with me that you are a moon cheese denier. Just adjust your tin foil hat so that it looks fashionable. A little quirky, but I like you anyway. :-)
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That article clearly says: The expedition is trying to update scientific measurements taken by an Australian expedition led by Douglas Mawson that set out in 1911.

Neither article says anything about them expecting clear water, or basing anything on climate models of any sort.
So far, it looks as if you are making things up again.
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On Monday, July 7, 2014 3:54:59 PM UTC-7, Higgs Boson wrote:


Update: I think my heirloom Toms must have hacked my computer and picked up on the badmouth. Looks like they got their **** together and are producing a few, just a few, more fruits.
Unrelated: I bit into a white peach that my friend brought over. New experience. Ever eat a fruit that had NO taste? Zero. Zip. Nada. Nichts. I could only manage half. Terrifying.
HB
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On 07/16/2014 11:53 AM, Higgs Boson wrote:

Hi Higgs,
Be careful you don't tell them what you plan on doing with their offspring. I tell mine I am taking them for a drive in the country. If you walk past them and you hear a faint voice that accuses your parents of not being married, then it is too late and they probably did hack your computer.
Mine cherries are all still green. They are mocking me.
-T
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Todd said:

Extremely stupid analogy. We can measure the mass, size, and compute the density of the moon. It cannot be made of Swiss cheese; no need to search every corner.
Also, see:
Russell's Teapot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot
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Pat in Plymouth MI

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On 07/17/2014 06:48 AM, Pat Kiewicz wrote:

That was the point. When NASA found the oceans where actually cooling, the ideologues had to come up with something to say their ideology was not refuted. The bollix they came up with was that the energy was locked up in the depths of the ocean, where coincidentally, just like my green cheese in the moon's core, could not be measured.

This is ideologically not science. You moon cheese denier you.
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Pat Kiewicz wrote:

Hey, let's stick to gardening! Visit my magic garden:
http://i57.tinypic.com/2hobtjq.jpg
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On 07/17/2014 12:13 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:

Warning, the link is a dirty cartoon.
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Pat Kiewicz wrote: ...

while i generally often agree with you in this case i sure don't. there are plenty of people working with agricultural systems which do not rely upon the normal mainstream grains (corn, wheat, rice).
my own experience has shown me that i can get quite a few calories from an area without resorting to any of these. yes, it may be more expensive in terms of labor for a farmer to plant varied crops and to have the ability to process and market them, but that is not the issue the issue is is it possible at all. quite clearly it is.
if this puts me in the denier village i'd find that rather strange, but oh well...
songbird
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songbird wrote:

Thankfully you are not in the denier village just the one that hasn't thought it through. Those "plenty of people" you refer to are not trying to feed the population of Asia, Africa and South America.
You and I have a choice of what calories to consume but we are in the rich minority. BILLIONS don't. Cut out grains, tubers, sugarcane and bananas and they starve. At the present state of the world it isn't possible for them to choose otherwise.
If you really want to make this argument show me the sums. Given the land area under cultivation show where do the calories come from if you exclude those crops and substitute the next best non-carbohydrate thing that will grow there.
Wealthy countries have the luxury of choosing what not to eat, the rest eat whatever they can get hold of.
David
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - A better world requires a daily struggle against those who would mislead us.
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On 07/18/2014 03:41 AM, David Hare-Scott wrote:

Hi Songbird,
Actually, I think you have though it through very well. I must disagree with David.
Your experience is the same as mine. When I first got inducted into the pin cushion club, I was a bit apprehensive as to what I could actually eat. Once I learned, I now have more variety than I have ever had before. As you stated, there is lots of stuff out there.
When I walk through a grocery store now-a-days, I avoid most of the place. I hit the paper goods, the produce, and the meat section. I walk past row after row after row of worthless, diabetes inducing food like substances. I imagine you don't need to go to the grocery store much, but do you have the same experience as I do avoiding most of it?
I once saw a documentary (love all the documentaries on Netflix/Roku) where someone toured the world and sampled all of the different foods everyone ate. And, yes they were trying to do a bit of the "gross out" factor, but they made the point that there are a lot of other foods out there that we don't eat and don't even know about. They eat a lot more variety than we do, including (gross out factor) bugs, which are really good for us. (I know, "EEEEWWWW".) We have definitely lost our "well balanced diet".
So, the idea that if we cut or reduce the consumption of Diabetes inducing "Healthy Carbs" (ha ha) and the world would starve is not really a good argument. I do not think David can make sweeping statements about everyone else without knowing the specific circumstances of each region, especially if he is basing it only on the the availability of the foods he knows about.
I remember one documentary were a group of women (family, friends, tribe) had to walk a week to get to the market. When asked about it, they exclaimed that they would NEVER trade places with us. They got to be with each other for the entire time. They have a point. Tribe versus stress. They were also not underfed.
One of the points Mark Sisson (Mr. Paleo) makes about Grok (our favorite hunter/gatherer) is that the variety of foods he had available to consume were much greater that what we consume today. I think this is a big issue for us in the developed countries, where we suffer from malnutrition with full bellies. I would posit that this is not as much an issue elsewhere as it is here. When they suffer from malnutrition, it is from actual lack of food.
I was starving to death, literally, with a belly full of (healthy carb) food when I hit the ER and got inducted into the pin cushion club.
The Heirloom movement is a good start for us. Weird fruits from around the world showing up for sale is too. I love the variety (although not the non-organic nature) of the food that shows up in the local Mexican stores. What is that green thing with all the fuzz on it anyway?
From what I can tell about you from your writing, you are at the bleeding edge of this new movement, including sustainable farming. (I admire what you do. To me and my black thumb, it is like you are magic.) Lots of varieties of things folks are not use to seeing and/or eating. We have lost so much by hybridizing our produce so it can be picked green and lay flat in shipping.
And small sustainable community farms do something that the commercial farms can not. They grow produce that actually tastes good, so your actually eat the stuff. (As opposed to buying it out of guilt, toss it in the refrigerator, shaking it once a week until it wilts or get rubbery, then, guilt free, tossing it into the trash.)
News from the black thumb front and things eaten in other parts of the world: my yard is so full of purslane I could feed 10 people with it. I break it up into one to two inch pieces and spread it over a couple of plates for my wife and I. I then cut up little pieces of a shallot, radish, and a heirloom tomato. Sprinkle over the purslane. Sprinkle dried pumpkin seeds over it (another super food, can't believe folks throw the things out). Add my homemade Paleo Ranch dressing. Top with bits of organic chicken or natural ground beef. Beautiful presentation with all the colors. And what a feast!
Sometimes I just bag up a bunch of Purslane for the week to use as quick salads. It lasts for up to three week in the refrigerator. Really easy and cheap to grow too. Required almost no water. All you have to do is walk on the soil or rocks to "disturb" the ground and away it goes. It is way more expensive and difficult to grow David's Health Carbs.
Tip: when you pick Purslane, give it a shake before bagging it up. This will reseed the area.
Purslane is so highly nutritious (virtually zero carbs too, so it is a free food for me) it is outrageous. And we in the developed counties treat it like a noxious weed. In less developed countries, it is call "food". Goodness do we ever missing the boat on a lot of this kind of stuff.
Chayote is another low carb food the takes very little effort to grow too. Far less than Healthy Carbs! As a matter of fact, you have to be careful it does not overgrow your yard! Butter, Cinnamon, Stevia, Chayote: YUM!
I think David's heart is in the right place, he just doesn't have enough information at hand. I also think that alternate viewpoints to his own tend to offends him. Kind of gets in the way of learning new things.
Some where I read that Purslane is desirable in your garden as your other plants follow Purslane's roots down. Can you confirm or deny? I do know Purslane keeps the evaporation down here in the desert. My vegi's seem to adore sharing there space with them!
Since I have been inducted and started to teach myself to cook, food in now an adventure. Especially sharing it with loved ones. I love it well I nail a recipe and my wife's eyes sparkle.
We have a lot to learn from the less developed counties. I do not think we have the "luxury" of not learning from them. They really should stay away from our Health Carbs, if at all possible.
Here is to variety in a well balanced diet! I will stop rambling now.
-T
Okay, I will stop rambling in a minute.
Ever since the first human eye look up at the night sky and saw the first star we were meant to go there. Even after we break the light barrier, as we will not be able to carry enough food for the journey, we will have to practice the sustainable techniques your are working with and developing now to get to those stars. So, you are higher tech and more forward thinking than you ever imagined. You are helping humanity touch the stars.
Now I will stop rambling.
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Todd said:

You are really going to continue in this vein?
For people who want to learn something:
"CO2 lags the warming" you mentioned earlier. Yes, the initial warming due to orbital cycles at the close of previous ice ages preceeds the CO2 increase, but 90% of post-ice age warming *follows* the increase in temperatures. Ever heard of feedback?
http://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-lags-temperature.htm
And might as well throw in these links, too, for people who might want to learn something:
<http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/seven-answers-to- climate-contrarian-nonsense/> http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
I know, I know, this is becoming irksome to various people.
First ripe tomato, July 16. Not an heirloom, but rather a SunSugar orange cherry tomato.
--
Pat in Plymouth MI

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