Fertilizer for slow growing plants

Page 3 of 3  
Tom Jaszewski wrote:

I could do that and if I did I would insert <snip> to let everyone know where I edited the post to which I am replying.
--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:16:27 GMT, "Travis"
When compost is set up that way, you can keep better track of moisture levels, temperature, etc. The wind row is then able to be turned onto the empty area next to it, each row having equal amounts of space and it is also used to keep track of which part of the compost is ready first, etc. There are many reasons for it's importance.
Victoria
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Whadda joker.
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt here:
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 00:39:40 GMT, "Travis"

Nothing like knowing what you are spraying.... Acts of creation are ordinarily reserved for gods and poets. To plant a pine, one need only own a shovel. -- Aldo Leopold
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Tom Jaszewski wrote:

I didn't feel like going outside and reading the label.
--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:29:48 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@netscape.net (paghat) wrote:

With the onset of the "chic" of organics, lately, it sure does seem there are many out there who are making false or unproven claims. I didn't read the data you provided, so I'm not sure if you posted scientific date to prove Ingham a wing nut, but it is compelling. Personally, my new style of gardening is to pull weeds, water when desperate to help specimens to flourish, cut things back a few times a summer, fertilize and that's about it. What survives, survives.
In the past I went through elaborate aerobic tea making and put out five gallons a week or so. My gardens were no better then than they are now, however, mine are not commercial and I really have no personal data. At least nothing scientifically collected data.

I have never used pesticides on my current property outside of the two times I used citrus oil for some major fire ant mounds. I have aphids in early spring on catch crops of gaura. They are always loaded (and I mean LOADED) with lady beetles in all stages of growth. It all strikes a balance. I'm glad there are people who are true to nature.
Victoria
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

I always give the highest authority to peer review science when the topic of the dangers of glyphosate arises. So don't shift your "science is worthless" values onto people who do value it. There is plenty of peer-reviewed science on compost teas. Vendors of compost teas prefer their own sales pitches for good reason.

--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt here:
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Unfortunately the main "authority" used by the politically duped folks at ATTRA is Elaine R. Ingham, the crackpot who was bounced around from college to college unable to win tenure until she was asked to resign from her final position for using University of Oregon fascilities to promote her private business of selling compost tea. Her misrepresentations are numerous & ATTRA has leapt in as pre-believers who didn't compare Ingham's faked data with actual field studies. Although to be fair, ATTRA has not collectively produced this literature, it is strictly promo literature by one man, Steve Diver, who seems to have bamboozled the naifs at ATTRA into actually breaking the law & putting their funding at risk. Diver is a friend & business associate of Ingham. He's obviously approached compost tea as a religion, & taken Ingham as his priestess -- because it is hard work to avoid the actual data as he has done.
Diver says of Ingham's self-published promotional booklet on which he bases his information, "I highly recommend this mannual," & throughout the text cites & paraphrases Ingham as the primary authority -- not for scientific data (for which there is none to support her claims) but Diver just writes promotionally, as in this choice turn of phrase: "Dr. Elaine Ingham, a microbial ecologist, has elevated our collective knowledge of the soil foodweb," even incorporating Ingham's personal, invented titles (a doctor of microbial ecology, gimme a break), which is entirely promo-jargon. He even works in her company name, Soil Foodweb in a most novel context. One has to give Diver credit for not promoting his own tapes at the same time; he does sell them.
Diver might be a reliable source of OTHER agricultural information, but for compost tea is merely a vendor promotor. He has elsewhere posted advertisements on the web & in newsgroups for such things as Ingham's $50 slide & video set for others who want (like himself) to give presentations & sell compost tea products. A typical example of his Ingham promotion appears here: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/2003-January/017161.html Nowhere does Diver ever cite the peer-reviewed evidence, for the same reason Ingham dares not do so.
Bare in mind that the best scientific data available on the very slight but actual values of compost teas do not find that aerated teas are in any way superior, & in some ways inferior -- these promotions are for aerated teas because they require expensive equipment & it's a profitable scam. A true believer in compost teas, rather than a scoundrel out for a buck, would be showing how the pricy equipment is a complete waste of money. So even as believers go, Diver was ENTIRELY the wrong gent to be providing information for ATTRA to deposit on line exclusively & illegally to promote specific vendors of worthless products, rather than show fellow believers how to do it better for free.
Diver's other major "authority" is BBC Laboratories which is a sciency sounding name for yet another vendor of compost teas. All the information ATTRA fobs off on the public is vendor-provided.
By law ATTRA is not permitted to advertise or endorse specific products, companies, or individuals. In promoting Ingham, her business, & even including photographs of the recommended products, the ATTRA articles on compost tea are actually illegal. I will forward this post to ATTRA & to relevant congressmen, as they've definitely stepped over the line repeatedly promoting Ingham's business & products, which they wouldn't've been permitted to do even if she weren't a known crackpot & falsifier of data.
But it's lucky for you you found Ingham paraphrased as it would seem you've finally joined the ranks of the many vendors rightly embarrassed by their former Vendor Goddess & no longer willing to cite her directly, but only through her main remaining advocate. I'm sure it still stings that you mistakenly posted in this ng, in failed support of Ingham & compost teas, her paranoid replies to why actual field research keeps failing to support her claims.
She went totally loony inventing that idiotic story about the REASON field tests show aerated teas have no effect on pathogens is because the researchers sneak into the fields at night and POISON THEIR PLANTS ON PURPOSE so that the scientific evidence will be negative & against compost tea effectiveness. I also liked her stuff about scientists having a a secret "HIDDEN AGENDA" so nefarious & sinister she cannot make sense of it even to herself let alone to her letter's readers. This really is like a schizophrenic pretty convinced of things no matter how great the disconnect from reality. But what is certain, in Ingham's world, you can't trust the scientists -- you can trust only herself & other vendors for the truth.
She further claimed in that posted letter that her research WOULD be forthcoming in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. She lied. It remains exclusively self-published promotional literature.
She not only fabricates data, she fabricates her own educational background, taken to task by Dr. James Moore when she claimed to have done some of her research at his side. She later said it was a completely different James Moore, some chap who mows golf courses, but that seems to have been another of her Invisible Playmates since no lawn-mowing "Dr." Moore has ever come forward to substantiate her diluted claim.
It's unfortunate that greenies at ATTRA, who should know better, have embraced Ingham's laughable & entirely vendor-oriented pretend-research which has been rejected from every peer-reviewed agricultural journal so that she has to publish leaving out testable data.
It's tragic that ATTRA would lend its organization name to Steve Divers merelyh to put the stamp of approval on a crazy woman like Ingham & ignore all actual research. And I use the word "crazy" advisedly since Ingham has shown a tendency toward paranoid delusions & conspiracy theories when confronted by actual research data.
Anyone who wants to believe the myths will naturally be drawn AWAY from the peer reviewed science & to this crackpot's notorious promotional literature. I will separately repost a bit of our old discussion of Ingham form the last time you talked yourself into a painted corner searching your heart out for any real science & lighting exclusively on Crazy Ingham. Anyone who just wants to sell the products, like Divers & I would guess yourself, will also not care that Ingham fabricates data, fabricates her expertise, & self-publishes her non-science after failing to convince any peer-reviewed agricultural journal to take her seriously.
-paggers
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt here:
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:21:03 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@netscape.net (paghat) wrote: Sure Ingham is a whack, but she did some good work but got caught up in believing her own half truths. I also share your disappointment in ATTRA publishing her latest set of bullshit concepts.
That being said, I'm well aware of numerous successes here with compost tea. There are plenty of practitioners who are also seeing success. I will not throw out the baby with the bath water...compost tea works! To constantly site Chaulker-Scott's poorly done study is as silly as quoting Queen Elaine's fabrications. If you want some of the really damning posts on Ingham and here con look to her NZ adventure with the Green Party.....or her pretending to not be on the board of directors of companies whose products she tests sells and recommends.
Spending your time bantering about the nut does nothing to discredit the good work continuing to be done. Unfortunately I'll have to wait to laugh I remind you I told you so....compost tea does a better job of building soils than the exclusive use of composts....compost extract and EM (effective microorganisms) and biological soil development works....just not in your yard....
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
paghat wrote:

Please keep us updated with regard to the congresspersons and ATTRA's response.
--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Tomski, you've done a good job in finding a paraphrase of Elaine Ingham's self-published promo literature for her compost tea company. You've as always done a terrible job of providing even moderately credible data of scientific origin. As promised, here is the:
REPOST WITH RELEVANT LINKS ON DR. INGHAM, HER FELLOW VENDORS' BEST-LOVED "EXPERT" ON COMPOST TEA:
Vendor Ingham posing as a scientific researcher set the standard for vendor-disseminated information. Ingham seems legitimately to have been mentally ill with some paranoid conspiracy theories on why her data couldn't be duplicated in any actual field study, so after several years of being a Big Cheese in a crooked industry, she finally became such an embarrassment she was by many simply cast to the wolves with some of her fellow vendors asserting that her tendency to falsification is an abberation & not the industry standard. She is not an aberration, & her "findings" are still the only ones the industry promulgates whether or not they attach her name to them.
The data to date supports compost teas as a tepid fertilizer & nothing more; its ability to enhance microorganisms is equal to the ability of regular watering to do so. Furthermore, though the vendors want you to believe aerating the tea is best & "safer" because non-aerated tea might be toxic, the few studies that indicate an unpredictable (so impractical) ability to deter disease as a foliar spray applies only to non-aerated teas. And it turns out aerated teas are MORE apt to contain harmful pathogens, rather than less apt as vendors of pricy equipment pretend, often on the basis of fraudulant sales-oriented "research" by the likes of Ingham.
Vendors want you to believe teas need aeration so that duped marks will pay $500 to $1,000 for special equipment to do for a high price what could be done for free & with no such equipment. By & large the whole fad for garden teas is hokum & what little good teas do is exceeded by any number of better metheds, such as organic compost topcoatings & sensible irrigation. And while the tepid fertilizer value of compost teas washes out of the soil with the first rain or the first regular watering, maintaining the soil with compost or leafmold topcoatings or other methods is a longlasting method.
If you have a compost barrel that saves the drippings, it does no harm to use that as the basis of a cost-free tea. But anyone spending money on equipment & tea mixes with the expectation that it is anything but the weakest possible fertilizer, they're duped marks & nothing more
In sum:
1) As a tepid fertilizer, okay, even though of less value than virtually any other method of soil restoration or improvement.
2) For disease control: it's an illusion. To quote University of Washington horitulturist Dr. Chalker-Scott: "In the peer-reviewed literature field-tested compost tea reported no difference in disease control between compost tea & water."
3) Never believe anything promulgated by vendors. There is no such thing as an honest garden tea vendor since the honest thing would be not to take people's money for useless equipment. It is ONLY profitable because bolstered with lies.
For assessment of the Lies of vendors vs the Realities, see: <http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.gardens/msg/3e740acc9cd1e1d2?dmode=source
For definitively wasteful & potentially harmful nature of teas, see: <http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.gardens/msg/4d3a210350839b0d?dmode=source
How the fraud is perpetuated through half-truths & lies & workshops at nurseries all on the worst level of hucksterism: <http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.gardens/msg/409e0c1292fe4656?dmode=source
My old report on Ingham's "tradition needs no science" looniness & paranoia, written a few months before the embarrassed industry began to jettison her as their chief divinity: <http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.gardens/msg/955f80727de46b92?dmode=source
Ingham's easily lampooned loony-tunes letter that publicly revealed her magical anti-science thinking & her paranoid state of mind: <http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.gardens/msg/ff945350d678f297?dmode=source
Any website invested in selling you stuff is not going to provide you with the actual data of compost teas harming ground water, leaching too quickly out of soils to be of any benefit, being in every regard inferior to a topcoating of mulching organic compost, NOT improving the microorganism content of soils, NOT repairing anaerobic soils, and for the most part not even hindering pathogenic organisms (no more than would a good soaking with pure water in any case).
Not everything labeled "organic" is a good or useful thing. Anyone who uses good organic compost & a regular watering schedule is doing much more for their garden than can be done with organic tea, & organic tea would not add anything additional, so it is a wasted inevestment of time & money & electricity (since vendors allege it has to be aerated), & even the cheaply made expensively sold plastic brewing equipment these flimflam artists foist on the public are manufactured at the highest level of pollution & waste with none of it being necessary.
The pro-Chemical lobby just hates it when "ecofundies" refuse to believe cancerous toxic chemicals are good for us & go all insane in defense of their PetroChemical fetish. It's unfortunate that greenies get just as fetishistic & up in arms when their favorite organic fad is found out to be 99.9% flimflam.
-paggers
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt here:
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.