Bone/ Blood Meal and Mad Cow Disease

Page 3 of 3  


You can't actually have a rational conversation with Silly Billo, he's a notorious troll who pokes into issues he knows little about in order to dissimilate & tell whoppers for the fun of getting anyone who actually cares about anything upset. He'll try every trolly trick except honesty to never budge, which over the years has led me to believe he doesn't personally care about a thing. Bare that in mind if you decide to play with him. A loony sod can be loads of fun if you're not taken by surprise how increasingly convoluted & ridiculous he will be whenever anyone condescends to notice he's back in action, & expect reason to have any accumulative effect on the unreasonable.
-paghat the ratgirl
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The fact that this is a "theoretical" risk is openly noted by the FDA -- if you look at its labeling guidance the FDA demands the following warning (see:
http://www.aabb.org/members_only/archives/regulatory_and_legislative_services/cjdcoi101001.htm
)
WARNING: Because whole blood and blood components are made from human blood, they may carry a risk of transmitting infectious agents, eg viruses, and theoretically the Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (CJD) agent.?
Note that "theoretically." In other words, they don't know what the risk actually is.
In fact, here's the FDA position as described by the AABB:
(see http://www.aabb.org/members_only/archives/association_bulletins/ab99-8.htm )
So far, there is no evidence that anyone who has traveled to the UK has become infected with nvCJD. The AABB does not believe that people who have traveled there should be concerned about their health. To date, there is also no evidence that nvCJD can be transmitted by blood transfusions, or by any type of person-to-person contact. However, until more research is done and conclusive evidence can be found regarding how nvCJD is transmitted, the FDA is requiring this precautionary donor deferral to safeguard against the unproven possibility that nvCJD could be spread by blood transfusion.
***** end excerpt ****
Ah yes, a precaution to safeguard against the unproven possibility.
That's rock solid science, yessirree.
As noted by the American Red Cross in
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/61/67396.htm?z 28_97177_2417_00_07
************************************ begin excerpt In 2001, in an attempt to protect the nation's blood supply from mad cow disease, the FDA banned blood donation from people who had previously lived in Europe. But blood industry representatives are appealing to the agency to lift the ban, saying that it exacts a tremendous toll on our blood supply.
Currently, donations are banned from:
* Anyone who has lived in the U.K. for three months or longer since 1980 * Anyone who has lived anywhere in Europe for six months since 1980 * Anyone who has received a blood transfusion in the U.K.
Mad cow disease is a degenerative brain disease in animals. Infected animals act crazy, or "mad," displaying changes in mood such as nervousness or agitation and having difficulty standing up, and usually die within two weeks to six months. Mad cow disease seems to spread to people through eating infected beef. Some animal studies suggest that it may be possible to transmit the disease through blood transfusion, prompting concerns among blood bank and FDA officials about safeguarding the blood supply.
Scientists still don't know a lot about mad cow disease and how it is transmitted, nor do doctors have a test to screen for it.
In humans, mad cow disease is called new variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, or vCJD. Most of the 140 vCJD cases identified so far have occurred in the U.K. The first U.S. case occurred in October 2002, but it is believed the patient contracted it while in the U.K.
Still, there is no evidence to suggest that the disease has spread through blood or blood products. "(But) the concern is that the incubation period can be quite long. Even if the risk is quite small, you might not see it in a hundred or so cases. After the experience in the '80s (with HIV transmission through the blood supply), the public expects us to do too much too soon rather than too little too late," said Peter L. Page, MD, senior medical officer at the American Red Cross. ***** end excerpt *****
Yes, Virginia, political. That's what "the public expects us to do too much too soon" means.
The AABB notes the effect this policy of "too much too soon" has on the blood supply. See
http://www.aabb.org/pressroom/press_releases/prtse062701.htm
begin excerpt
*********
The AABB acknowledges the FDA's need to reach a compromise on whether to implement any new donor deferral policies while at the same time carefully balancing patient welfare against all relevant risks and benefits to patient health.
Currently, an individual will be deferred or disqualified as a blood donor if he or she has lived in the United Kingdom for a cumulative period of six months or more from 1980-1996. This policy was established by the FDA in order to prevent a possible but not confirmed risk of transmitting vCJD through blood transfusion.
However, stricter criteria currently are being debated, which could adversely affect the availability of blood. Although it is difficult to measure precisely the effect of a stricter deferral, best estimates suggest that anywhere between five and ten percent of potential blood donors could be eliminated.
"We recognize that a theoretical risk of transmission of TSE through blood transfusion exists," said Klein. "At the same time, availability of blood is also a safety issue and we must balance this risk against the potential risk of TSE transmission through blood."
******** end excerpt
Here's what are to tell people who are deferred:
IF YOU WERE DEFERRED AS A BLOOD DONOR BECAUSE OF TRAVEL TO THE UNITED KINGDOM?
* The deferral is a result of a Food and Drug Administration (FDA) recommendation that anyone who spent more than six months in the United Kingdom (UK) between 1980 and 1996 be deferred from donating blood. We would like to reassure you, however, that you should not be alarmed about your health, and we do not believe that it is necessary for you to see your doctor as a result of this deferral.
* The FDA is taking a very conservative approach to make sure that an unusual and rare brain disease called "new variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease" (nvCJD) does not affect the US blood supply. In fact, this travel deferral is an addition to other CJD deferrals that have been in place for many years.
* New variant CJD is extremely rare, and has infected only a very small number of people, mostly from England or other parts of the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Channel Islands and Isle of Mann). It is likely, but not yet proven, that there is a connection between eating beef from cattle infected with a similar disease.
* There is no evidence that travelers to the UK, even those who may have eaten beef while traveling there, have become infected with nvCJD. Scientists do not believe that nvCJD can be transmitted through casual or even intimate (sexual) contact with an infected person. To date, there is no evidence that nvCJD can be spread person-to-person by blood transfusions. However, until more research is done and conclusive evidence can be found regarding how nvCJD is transmitted, the FDA is requiring this precaution.
* Your deferral period is (institution's deferral period here). We share your disappointment, but please know that as new information about nvCJD, or even a blood test, becomes available, it may be possible someday to reinstate you as a donor.
* Thank you for your generous spirit. Your desire to save lives by donating blood makes all the difference for patients in need, and we are grateful to you.
(http://www.aabb.org/members_only/archives/association_bulletins/ab99-8.htm )
So, it is a theoretical risk in which there is no actual evidence that travellers to the UK are at risk and they are doing it to be extremely cautious and do "too much too soon." And in doing so, they are decreasing the blood supply by 10 - 15% at a time with blood demand is increasing.
As noted by Celso Bianco, MD in his review for Hematology:
(see http://www.aabb.org/members_only/archives/association_bulletins/ab96-4.htm )
The theoretical possibility of CJD transmission by transfusion has been examined by other investigators. A study of transfusion histories of 202 definite and probable cases of CJD which had been part of prospective studies performed in England and Wales between 1980-84 and 1990-92, showed that 21 of the patients had received blood transfusions and 29 had donated blood (8). The frequency of blood transfusions or donations did not differ between CJD cases and matched controls, leading the investigators to conclude that the evidence did not suggest that transfusion was a major risk factor for development of CJD (8). No cases of CJD among hemophiliacs have been reported in the medical literature. The Medline database contains 1,485 references on CJD and 6,385 references on hemophilia between January 1976 and October 1994. None of these references links CJD and hemophilia. An extensive review of mortality data performed by L. Schonberger from the CDC did not identify a single CJD death in individuals with a clott
On December 15, 1994, the issue of CJD and transfusion was reviewed by the FDA Blood Products Advisory Committee. After extensive discussion, the Committee recommended that in-date cellular products of blood from donors who later develop CJD should be withdrawn from distribution. In case these products were transfused, the Committee recommended that physicians and recipients be notified. In the case of plasma pooled for further manufacture, the Committee recommended against recall of manufactured products, because of the lack of evidence for transmission. The hemophilia community appeared to be quite dissatisfied with this recommendation, leading the FDA to convene a new Advisory Committee to review the possibility of transmission of CJD by plasma derivatives. The Special Advisory Committee met on June 22, 1995, and recommended that all plasma products containing plasma from individuals who later died of CJD, including albumin, should be withdrawn from the market, despite the lack of evidence for transmissib
Lookback studies have been organized around blood donors who later developed CJD. These studies involve identification of recipients and review of their health status. So far, review of the cause of death of 35 recipients of these units indicated that none had developed CJD or other central nervous system disease. Once case of potential transmission to a liver transplant recipient who also received transfusions of albumin has recently been reported. One of the albumin donors died three years later from a dementia clinically characterized as CJD (9). Obviously, the liver transplant recipient was exposed to a variety of drugs and biologics, making it difficult to determine the exact source of disease. Unfortunately, because of the very low incidence of CJD and the long incubation period, there will be a long period of time before more definitive answers become available. In the interim, CJD is being approached as a disease which can theoretically be transmitted by blood and blood products.
***** end excerpt ****
The risk is small. Period.
billo
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

By no means a joke. Deaths from e-coli & mad cow is why they are so often called McDeath or McDisease, serving Big McBrain & McPoo burgers.
Most or all the UK cases were from meats processed by McKey Food Corporation under contract to McDonalds. McDeadly was where victims purchased the greater percentage of beef in their diets. McDonalds became McLibel trying to sue people into shutting up about it; they didn't care if they won or lost the suits, which were intended to be costly for their foes. The suits were defined as "strategic lawsuits to stop public activism" & succeeded in frightening even news agencies into mentioning it, because short of a doubleblind independent study (which was never going to happen) no proof could ever be proof enough, & McLibel would sue & sue & sue & become the biggest nuisances on earth. Newspapers would rather have McDonald's advertising dollars rather than be the target of another of McDonald's Strategic Suits Against Public Activism, so they won't harp on the connection.
But somehow in their suit-happy mood McDonalds never had the nerve to sue Eric Schlosser who documented McDonald's role in spreading diseases to people, because that's stuff that won't help them once it is quoted thereafter from sworn court testimony.

It was reported on Dateline in August 20, 1997, that four victims in UK of the human form of Mad Cow were not meat eaters, but had been exposed to bonemeal in their gardening practices. It was also in numerous newspapers at the time. The Dateline report had the daughter of one of the victim describing her father in his rose garden stirring up a veritable cloud of bonemeal dust. Doubtlessly it was in UK newspapers just as commonly at the time. But public memory is short, & when a new Associated Press article does appear as a reminder (such as by Rukmini Callimachi this past December, in the wake of a new mad cow scare) who really reads the newspapers these days? Callimachi reported that only THREE non-meat-eating gardeners died, but previous articles always say it was four; there's always absolute agreement they were gardeners who used bonemeal, & had no other possible point of exposure to the deadly prions.
In consequence of these facts, the British Royal Horticutural Society recommen ds that bonemeal users never use bonemeal without a facemask. The utter uselessness of the sorts of masks you can buy in nearest hardware store, unfortunately RHS failed to note that.
After the mad cow scare last year here in Washington state (thanks to infected cows brought in from Canada making it into the human foodchain) a number of safety measures were put into place that never existed before, & which even now have no enforcement system. The recalls included bonemeal products using cowparts, & also soaps. One federal inspector said that there were so many niche markets for the secondary leavings of diseased cattle that it was impossible to recall all of it. Several distributors of this deadly garbage "voluntarily" withdrew bonemeal & tallow products from the given time-period of BSE known to be in the product chain, but volunteering was just a trick to guarantee the government would not in the future harrass anyone with any new laws with teeth or enforcement of any kind. It remains a self-regulating industry, & cleaning up their act is strictly a matter of public relations.
-paghat the ratgirl
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Fri, 28 May 2004 15:38:50 -0700, I found this from snipped-for-privacy@netscape.net (paghat) :

According to my son, a medical microbiologist with a keen interest in BSE, your stuff is spot on. It is worth pointing out that a fairly tight cluster was discovered in and around a small village in Leicestershire. Research has been completed there but longitudinal research is I am told still in progress.
After the first published report of BSE was drawn to my attention, I think it was in The Veterinary Record in 1987, October 31, I may well be a bit out here, I stopped using bone meal and blood. Most of my rose growing buddies haven't used it now for years. The few who do only apply it in the rain and looking like space men! I did get a bit of a ribbing at the time, not know. I took quiet satisfaction in drawing their attention at the time to the case of the gardeners mentioned by paghat. If I recall rightly it was widely discussed at the time.
In reply to your question

I have to ask can we believe the newspapers these days?
Will
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

May I respectfully suggest, Will, that regardless of your son's opinion, a discussion of a disease acquired by eating at a restaurant is off-topic on a gardening newsgroup. The original question, whether bonemeal fertilizer is a threat, is more related, and as usual Paghat's response is fabricated nonsense.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Actually it's dead-on on-topic that gardeners should know the evidence of four out of 50 deaths effected gardeners through use of bonemeal, the rest through eating at Mcdonalds. Those are FACTS and only blind-with-head-in-shit-pile fools won't even consider the facts of the matter. It's also dead-on on-topic that the Royal Horticultural Society recommends never using bone or blood meal without wearing a mask because of the risk of BSE exposure. Even the type of head-in-shitpile fool who won't believe in reality should be able to tell that's on-topic.
Your pal, paghat the ratgirl
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
from snipped-for-privacy@netscape.net (paghat) contains these words:

No, they are garbled nonsense, for which you have failed to provide any evidence of scientific research. Sorry, American newspaper reports don't count.
Janet.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
from snipped-for-privacy@netscape.net (paghat) contains these words:

Sorry, that's wrong. No such link has ever been made.
New-variant CJD in people is thought to incubate for years before showing symptoms. One of the first symptoms is mental deterioration. For those two reasons it would be impossible to verify in detail the entire meat-eating history of any victim and conclude that one particular brandname was the source of "most or all of the UK cases".

Not that I recall.
But public memory is short, & when a new Associated Press article

Surely you do not accept "press reports", or the Associated Press, as bastions of accredited research? Whose research was s/he quoting from?
IIRC only one person who died from CJD, was claimed to be a lifelong vegetarian. IOW others who were vegetarians at the time they developed symptoms, had earlier eaten meat.
I think it unlikely that any creditable scientist would consider that erstwhile carnivores had "NO other possible exposure" to infected prions other than bonemeal inhaled in the garden, given that it's now thought nv-CJd is medically transmissible between people.
Janet.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Our mad cow never made it into the food chain, yours did.
That aside. Thanks for the warning about bone meal. What kind of other fertilizer would be good for roses?
take care Liz
On Fri, 28 May 2004 15:38:50 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@netscape.net (paghat) wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
For bone meal, replace using soft rock phosphate. Not that awful junk Triple Phosphate. Really, my roses (I have 2, a Rosa rugosa and an antique climber) love the application of compost, and I fertilize them with organic pelletized fertilizer, LadyBug Brand (if you can not find it in your area, ask around for another brand of certified organic) and I spray the roses with aerobic tea, liquid seaweed, molasses, apple cider vinegar and fish emulsion. All of that goes into a sprayer at a rate of 1 tablespoon per gallon of (rain) water, and the aerobic tea at about a cup to the gallon. I do this and I have virtually no problems. I cannot control the humidity. The roses get plenty of air circulation.

Need a good, cheap, knowledge expanding present for a friend? http://www.animaux.net/stern/present.html
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Mon, 31 May 2004 14:25:47 GMT, I found this from escapee
Been using this for years its really worht using.
Will
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Yes, it is. I find it a more available form of phosphate than any other organic form. Many times there is plenty of phosphorous in the soil, but it's locked up and to help with the exchange of that I use epsom salts.
V
Need a good, cheap, knowledge expanding present for a friend? http://www.animaux.net/stern/present.html
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Fri, 28 May 2004 19:53:19 +0100, I found this from Janet

Once again your head is up your arse.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

No doubt *all four* of them also drank water, breathed air, and wore clothes. Thus, you must believe that drinking water, breathing air, and wearing clothes causes BSE.
In fact, there is no evidence whatsoever that using bonemeal leads to BSE. The BSE hysteria is a wonderful example of hysteria overtaking science.
billo
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Billy) wrote:

Your usual netkook thinking at work again. Someone could jump off a cliff & break his spine & cave in his skull, & if it were profitable to convince others to break their spines & skulls, you'd tell 'em the headlong leap was harmless, because all the injured parties were actually maimed & killed because they breathed air & drank water water & wore clothes. Somehow I suspect holding their breath, going thirsty, & being naked all the time, wouldn't change the course of a dease, the cause of which is well established.
-paghat the ratgirl
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

No, paghat, that's what *you* are claiming. Here's a clue again -- association != causation. The "netkook" thinking is to inflate theoretical risks into something they are not. Yet one more clue, Paghat. There's a reason it's not called "beef renderer's disease."
Tell me, Paghat, how many British meat renderers have contracted BSE? After you tell me that, tell me how risky casual contact is. Your "netkook" hysteria is the kind of thing that made people afraid to touch HIV positive patients.
There are risks, but people should find out exactly what they are, not inflate fantastical risks from their ideology.
billo
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Nice to see you still minimizing behind the guise of science....
On Tues, 01 Juno 2004 23:16:01 -0000, snipped-for-privacy@radix.net (Bill Oliver) wrote:

Acts of creation are ordinarily reserved for gods and poets. To plant a pine, one need only own a shovel. -- Aldo Leopold
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
opined:

I don't know that data, but soft rock phosphate is far better for soil than is bone meal and seaweed is far better for soil than is blood meal.
...as an aside.
V
Need a good, cheap, knowledge expanding present for a friend? http://www.animaux.net/stern/present.html
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Site Timeline

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.