Making Rainwater Harvesting Illegal

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You have an odd attitude for someone who claims a background in pedagogy. Ecology: 1 the branch of biology that deals with the relations of organisms to one another and to their physical surroundings.
The highest "function" of ecology would then be to understand those relationships and determine the consequences of changes in their relationships.
But then a proponent of "Ditsy" (a.k.a. Dixie) Lee Ray isn't bound by logic. In 1973 Ray became chairperson of the AEC (a Nixon appointed marine biologist). A colorful and often controversial figure, Ray championed the expansion of nuclear power facilities and often found herself at odds with environmentalists. Convinced that nuclear power could be made absolutely safe, she urged construction of more nuclear power plants.
And we still don't have anyplace to put the longed lived poisons that come out of nuclear reactors.
Then there is her musings on air pollution. "We need to ask, for instance: Is there a good justification, a solid base of scientific facts for the presumed relation between air pollutants and human health?" Anyone? Anyone want to answer that?
No Oz, I don't think we need your advice on ecology.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
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"...we" ? From a person who claims a background in understanding.
You seem to dredge up an Alzheimer-based hatred of Gov. Ray at every opportunity. Can you remember why? Being hidebound is not a virtue, you whiny drongo.
cheers
oz
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Can I get a citation for Alzheimer-based hatred? I've never heard of it.

"Ray championed the expansion of nuclear power facilities and often found herself at odds with environmentalists. Convinced that nuclear power could be made absolutely safe, she urged construction of more nuclear power plants."
So you must have the answer to nuclear waste. I'd love to hear it.
After all these years, the nuclear power industry cannot get private financing for to build new nuclear plants. They cannot get private insurance to guarantee against an accident like Three Mile Island. Why do you think that is is Oz?
--
Environmental Overkill (1993)
Dixie Lee Ray with Lou Guzzo
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Pick a place -- anyplace -- and pave over about a square mile. Then roof it over. Put concrete berms, maybe five feet or so high around the edges. Coat the entire system with ceramic. Put all the solid shit in there of whatever kind. Erect a fence around it, with locked gates. Put up signs, saying: "Don't fuck with this or it will kill you. Walk away.
For liquid, various forms of distillation apparatus and incinerators exist to reduce it to solid See solution above.
cheers
oz
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I know it's far fetched but . . . what if someone flew a 747 into it. It could happen. People like you can really irritate some people, ya know. Good use of scatology. It compliments your invectives. It's just an example. Where there's a will, . . .
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
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In reviewing the day, I came back to this.
It was an uncalled for remark, disrespectful of you and of anyone ever afflicted by that horrible disease.
I humbly apologize to you and to anyone who may have read that episode and was rightfully offended by it.
We have disagreed and probably will continue to do so, but this was beneath all I stand for.
I am sorry
oz
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Contriteness over a perceived lack of sensitivity. My god, how delicate you must be, you poor man.
And so you old fool, you think that with a wave of the hand, all is forgotten:
Ditsy (a.k.a. Dixie) Lee Ray: Is there a good justification, a solid base of scientific facts for the presumed relation between air pollutants and human health? Billy: Care to answer that Oz?
Ditsy (a.k.a. Dixie) Lee Ray: Are the programs to reduce pollutants realistic and cost-effective? What benefits have been achived? Billy: What realistic and cost-effective price do you put on a human life, Oz, hmmm? You didn't answer the question Oz.
Oz:You seem to dredge up an Alzheimer-based hatred of Gov. Ray at every opportunity. Billy: Can I get a citation for Alzheimer-based hatred? I've never heard of it. You didn't answer the question Oz.
Billy: After all these years, the nuclear power industry cannot get private financing for to build new nuclear plants. They cannot get private insurance to guarantee against an accident like Three Mile Island. Why do you think that is Oz? You didn't answer the question Oz.
Billy: So you must have the answer to nuclear waste. I'd love to hear it. Oz: Pick a place -- anyplace -- and pave over about a square mile. Then roof it over. Put concrete berms, maybe five feet or so high around the edges. Coat the entire system with ceramic. Put all the solid shit in there of whatever kind. Erect a fence around it, with locked gates. Put up signs, saying: "Don't fuck with this or it will kill you. Walk away. Billy:I know it's far fetched but . . . what if someone flew a 747 into it. It could happen. You didn't answer the question Oz.
Now how about some rectitude over the crap that you have been spewing, you pompous, old hack?
Oz, a legend in his own mind.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
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Now the entire place knows you for what you are.
I have never been comfortable around bullies.
To the delight of some, I therefore find I must leave.
Sorry, Charlie; we seem to have begun a convivial relationship. And Victoria, I really did treasure your knowledge and willingness to share it with others, even though we got testy from time to time
cheers to the rest
oz, who won't be here to see the juvenile Nyaaa, Nyaaa in response
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In article

Maudlin to the end.
Oz's heroine, Dixie Lee Ray, besides supporting nuclear energy, and denying man's complicity in acid rain, ozone depletion, and global warming, was one of the proliferators of the lie that Rachel Carson, because of her expos on DDT, was responsible for millions of deaths from malaria.
See: http://info-pollution.com/ddtban.htm and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT In 1955, the World Health Organization commenced a program to eradicate malaria worldwide, relying largely on DDT. The program was initially highly successful, eliminating the disease in "Taiwan, much of the Caribbean, the Balkans, parts of northern Africa, the northern region of Australia, and a large swath of the South Pacific"[17] and dramatically reducing mortality in Sri Lanka and India.[18] However resistance soon emerged in many insect populations as a consequence of widespread agricultural use of DDT. In many areas, early victories against malaria were partially or completely reversed, and in some cases rates of transmission even increased.[19] The program was successful in eliminating malaria only in areas with "high socio-economic status, well-organized healthcare systems, and relatively less intensive or seasonal malaria transmission".[20] DDT was less effective in tropical regions due to the continuous life cycle of mosquitoes and poor infrastructure. It was not pursued at all in sub-Saharan Africa due to these perceived difficulties, with the result that mortality rates in the area were never reduced to the same dramatic extent, and now constitute the bulk of malarial deaths worldwide, especially following the resurgence of the disease as a result of microbe resistance to drug treatments and the spread of the deadly malarial variant caused by Plasmodium falciparum. The goal of eradication was abandoned in 1969, and attention was focused on controlling and treating the disease. Spraying programs (especially using DDT) were curtailed due to concerns over safety and environmental effects, as well as problems in administrative, managerial and financial implementation, but mostly because mosquitoes were developing resistance to DDT.[19] Efforts were shifted from spraying to the use of bednets impregnated with insecticides and other interventions.[20][21]
Like John McCain, I might enjoy having a beer with him, but his information on environmental concerns is criminally ideological.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
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On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 12:53:01 -0700 (PDT), MajorOz

I'm late with this Mike, and likely you are gone, but just in case..... :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvwrSdMY7dQ&feature=related

Charlie, in an AP kind of mood tonite........
Who knows when we shall meet again, if ever But time... keeps flowing like a river..To the sea... to the sea.....Till its gone forever... gone forever.... gone forever.....Ahhhhh!!!!!! Forever more!! Forever more!! Forever more!!
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That's why "here and now" is so important. Every second zen. Here and Now.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
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wrote:

     Tan cierto, hermano Charlie
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FarmI wrote:

The article says nothing about collected rainwater _being_ greywater, only that it is _considered_ greywater. i.e. not pure enough to meet contemporary drinking water standards. When one considers what birds leave on your roof there is certainly merit to that.
More questionable is Colorado's contention that rainwater should be allowed to flow onto the ground and eventually to a stream. I'd contend that harvested rainwater does just that. If I dump in on my garden it is going onto the ground just a surely as if I hadn't been there in the first place. If I choose to risk drinking it then it will either 1) go into the municipal sewage system and eventually make it downhill to that stream or 2) go into my septic system or privy out back. In any case it will eventually be flowing into the groundwater. About the only way it wouldn't do that would be if I carefully collected the rainwater and shipped it to the other side of the continental divide(s) and dumped/used it there. That is about the only way it wouldn't make it into the local Colorado aquifer or river by some route.
--
John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
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The exact quote is:

With "gray water" you are usually cautioned to watch your plants for any bad reactions to the water. I don't think that would be necessary here.
The operable word here is "collected". It does indeed depend on how you collect it. I won't bore you with tales of dead birds floating in our local water tower, or of the sewage that riverside municipalities dump into the river, or even the sulfur, arsenic, and coliform bacteria from pastoral run-off that finds its' way into local wells (we use a carbon filter). No. None of that.
No, I'm going to have to bask in the unpardonable sin of flouting my regional environment (which we all love to do when we get the chance, be it planting okra in April, or sledding in September). Unlike those of you east of the Rocky Mountains, we, to the west, only see rain during the winter (ergo "Golden State", the hills are a golden brown). We don't get those 30 min. downpours that flush the crap from the air, leaving the air pristine, until the smokestacks once again do their magic. Those 30 min. downpours that bring the airborn toxins to ground to poison your lakes and steams, and kill your forests. The air then is recharged with fresh toxins and the cycle repeats.
Our air comes in from over the Pacific Ocean and continues on east (unless you live in La La Land, in which case it runs into the San Bernardino Mountains and you keep breathing the same exhaust fumes for weeks). What toxins that may be carried by the air are quickly removed for us by the first few minutes of rain. The rain that falls over the next hours or days is nearly as good as the day after "creation".
Given pure, clean water, the question is how to collect it? Collected from roof tops and gutters, the water would reflect their cleanliness. Most of our birds disappear by Dec. and return in March. If I were to drink water from my roof (which is metal), I would hose off the roof first and flush out the gutters (which have screens over them). Even so, I would probably either boil the water or add hypochlorite to it before I drank it.
To have really good drinking water, I could set out some 5 gal. water bottles with wide funnels in them and catch the purest water this side of distillation, that there is.
But then, we were talking about the "STATE" claiming the rain that fell on our land (if your lucky enough to have land). Most of us own the mineral rights below the surface, I think that I would make the argument that the mineral rights above the surface fall into the same category, unless they were sold. If not, the next logical step is, if a smokestack owner wants to pollute it, it's none of your business, but to remediate the situation, he would happily sell you a supply of clean air.
This is known as neo-liberalism and the motto is "The greatest good comes from a free market place, to hell with democracy".
I am the earth. You are the earth. The Earth is dying. You and I are murderers. ~Ymber Delecto
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
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On 4/19/2009 12:17 PM, Billy wrote [in part]:

In most urban and suburban areas of California (and likely other states), the ownership of mineral rights was separated from surface rights long before tracts were subdivided. Few homeowners who own the land on which their houses sit also own the minerals or water under the house.
--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
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And this is all duly noted in your deed. What does your deed say about the mineral rights above the surface of your property. That is my point.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
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Not so! The article I read, which is the cite that Charlie gave, does indeed call the water "greywater". After mentioning the residents collecting rainwater, the article say: "Using this "greywater", as it is called".......
There is absolutley no mention of "comtemporayr" standards of drinking water.
And the definition of "greywater" is definitely preloved water, ie, it has been through the household. Other domestic water can also be "blackwater" and one shouldn't use that without significan t treatment.
When one considers what birds leave

What do you think might be the problem in a bit of bird poop?

Yep.
If I dump in on my garden it is going > onto the ground just a surely as if I hadn't been there in the first place.
Yep

Yep.
That
Yep.
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In article

Water off of a roof in the middle of winter, once boiled and settled, has to be better than what comes out of the municipal tap with it's chlorine and trihalomethanes.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
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The rain itself is still pure (whatever that means). The roof is part of the collection system, as are the spout and the barrel. But that doesn't change the fact that the rain water was clean (whatever that means) before it hit the collection system.
Picky picky picky.... :-)
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John McGaw wrote:

What birds leave on your roof may be unaesthetic but so are high levels of salts and chlorine often found in reticulated water.
Will roof water do you harm in comparison to the impurities in reticulated water? That probably depends on the samples being compared and how long you drink it. That town water would always be better is certainly not true, there are well known examples of inferior town water and of failures in purification systems in cities and towns leading to systemic risk to the population.
I would bet that my roof water would meet or exceed contemporary standards for microorganisms and far exceed those for salts, industrial pollution, heavy metals and miscellaneous environmental chemicals. And it has no chlorine. The downside is that if I had children here long term I would need to give them fluoride supplements.
David
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