Horticultural Myths, Dr. L. Chalker-Scott

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This is a website of the Curriculum Director WSU (Washington) Master Gardener Program. Good info for those interested the more advanced/Master Gardening aspects, especially her Myth papers:
http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/index.html
or: http://tinyurl.com/afje26
If anyone has info from their area/or their AG Institutes I would appreciate a link to bookmark.
g.
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Thanks Gunner, this is a very informative site.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
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wrote:> Thanks Gunner, this is a very informative site.

Your welcome, Billy. I read most all your links, some very good ones there. I like to share info also and challenge my beleifs. Sometimes it is good to recognize we tend to cherry pick our infomation according to our beleifs and to challenge those very beleifs forces one to view the world thru a different prisim. I try not to see the world as black and white, but rather more greyscale. It that amatuer anthropologist in me. I sometimes think Americans tend to do everything to excess; eat, drink....... even proselytize. I mentioned to FARMI that I am a fan of Carl Sagan's The fine art of Boloney Detection, which many dismiss just becasue he had atheist views, completely missing his categories of stripping away the petty BS/myths that we tend to use in debate/argument. " Tools for skeptical thinking. ...What skeptical thinking boils down to is the means to construct, and to understand, a reasoned argument and -- especially important -- to recognize a fallacious or fraudulent argument. The question is not whether we like the conclusion that emerges out of a train of reasoning, but whether the conclusion follows from the premise or starting point and whether that premise is true."
here is the wiki version of his points: http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/The_Fine_Art_of_Baloney_Detection or http://tinyurl.com/kwdbxm
when you get the chance you might preview another of Dr. Chalker-Scott's: http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths/Amendments%204.pdf or http://tinyurl.com/loc252
she and many others have stated ; "Organic matter is fertilizer and is composed of the same elements that make up commercial fertilizers. If it is applied in excess, it will cause pollution problems just as surely as those commercial fertilizers do." Lots of eco-examples on both sides of that issue. perhaps it is an issue of over application. I find the more pure the substance, the more likely it can be misapplied/misapplied.
BTW, 100lbs of 10-10-10 will yield 10 lbs of N, ~4.4 lbs of P and ~8.3 lbs of K. P and K are not elemental in fert labeling, you need to use the atomic weights.
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Uh, when miracles come in, science goes out the window. As the Tom Hanks character said in that horrible movie, Angels and Demons,"I don't have the gift of faith".

I don't think anyone here has ever recommended 23% organic matter. The range (IIRC) has been 5% to 10% but it is an important note that degraded OM can pollute in the same way as chemferts.

Considering the atmosphere is about 78% N2, and elemental phosphorus and potassium can be exciting stuff, I wasn't trying to be analytical here. As I'm sure you are aware that agricultural nitrogen comes in the salt forms of NH3 and NO3 but the percentage on the container is only for the elemental nitrogen, not that of the compound, but strangely enough the next two numbers are for the compounds and not the elements. To follow along you must know that the atomic weight (at.wt.) of phosphorus is approximately 31, and oxygen is 16. Phosphorus comes as P2O5 ([31 X 2]+[16 X 5]= at. wt. 142 for the compound, but the percentage of phosphorus is P/P2O5 = 62/142 =.44) and the actual percentage of elemental phosphorus is 44% of the percentage listed. Potassium comes as K2O and the percentage of elemental potassium is 83% of the percentage listed, or K = 39 (atomic weight) and O = 16, so K2O = 94, and %K K/K2O = 78/94 = .83 ---> 83%.
Bottom line is that in a 100 lb. bag of 10 - 10 - 10, 10 lbs will be N (as NH3 or NO3), 10 lb. of P2O5 = 4.4 lb. P, and 10 lb. of K2O = 8.3 lb. of K.
Anybody still awake?
And that's why I said it the way I did.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertilizer for further confusion. Still, a good article. Thanks again.
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- Billy
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. Gunner wrote: BTW, 100lbs of 10-10-10 will yield 10 lbs of N, ~4.4 lbs of P and ~8.3 lbs

Billy tapdanced with: "Considering the atmosphere is about 78% N2, and elemental phosphorus and

Are you confused as to what you actually said? Here is your cut and pasteed comment to Florabloom:
"If you buy a HUNDRED POUND BAG of 10 - 10 - 10 chemical fertilizer, it will contain 10 lbs of nitrogen (ammonia or nitrate), 10 lbs of phosphorous, and 10 lbs of potassium. A similar bag of 1-1-1, would yield a pound of each/bag."
Changing stories again? Not quite accurate is it nor what you now say. the same for your comment on "chemferts kill micro organisms the inferences causing nitrates in water harming babies. You BS ........alot and as we saw with Florabloom you attack when you lose.
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They've all been answered. If you can't read, you should complain to your school board.
--

- Billy

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
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wrote:

You seem to snip alot of your BS out when you get caught up in a lie Billy.
So did you say ;
"If you buy a HUNDRED POUND BAG of 10 - 10 - 10 chemical fertilizer, it will contain 10 lbs of nitrogen (ammonia or nitrate), 10 lbs of phosphorous, and 10 lbs of potassium. A similar bag of 1-1-1, would yield a pound of each/bag."
and then change it to say
"Bottom line is that in a 100 lb. bag of 10 - 10 - 10, 10 lbs will be N (as NH3 or NO3), 10 lb. of P2O5 = 4.4 lb. P, and 10 lb. of K2O = 8.3 lb. of K.
Anybody still awake?
And that's why I said it the way I did."
True or not Billy boy?
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Excellent, gunnie, you followed my explanation very well.
Now to test YOUR chemistry abilities, when a weighed piece of metal is heated with excess sulfur, a chemical reaction occurs between the metal and the sulfur. The excess sulfur is then driven off, leaving only the compound, consisting of combined metal and sulfur. From the weight of M and the weight of the compound, the weight of the ulfur i the compound can be deduced. Weight of the metal = 2.435 g Weight of the compound = 3.397 g Weight of sulfur = 0.962 g
What is the simplest formula for the compound, if the atomic weight of the metal is 121.76, hmmm?
Show that you know your ass from a hole in the ground and we will continue seaman.
--

- Billy

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
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In article

I realize that you have limited abilities so let me remove my typos. I was just in such a rush to let you prove your expertise, that the excitment carried me away.
Excellent, gunnie, you followed my explanation very well.
Now to test YOUR chemistry abilities, when a weighed piece of metal is heated with excess sulfur, a chemical reaction occurs between the metal and the sulfur. The excess sulfur is then driven off, leaving only the compound, consisting of combined metal and sulfur. From the weight of M and the weight of the compound, the weight of the sulfur in the compound can be deduced. Weight of the metal = 2.435 g Weight of the compound = 3.397 g Weight of sulfur = 0.962 g
What is the simplest formula for the compound, if the atomic weight of the metal is 121.76, hmmm?
Show that you know your ass from a hole in the ground and we will continue seaman.
--

- Billy

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few
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Did you say it or not Billy? why, yes.... yes, you did, so once again you lied, Can you back up your Chemfart kill lie Billy? Why no, you cannot Billy! The chem farts?...., you lied Billy, the same as your Ironite research...... You lied Billy, The same as your calling the Prof a Corporate Shrill, Your a liar Billy! A blowhard and a liar, Billy. Chem farts is forever your lie now Billy!
Don't you owe an apology to Martin for being such a little prick and a liar! Now go away and don't do that again Billy.
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snipped-for-privacy@stopspam.com says...

The rest of that damnable bag's weight is occupied by inert filler.
The numbers are percentages and 10+10+10 of a hundred pound bag equals 30% of the bag the whole of which delivers 10 pounds of nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium and 70 pounds of filler.
This is very very basic stuff and Billy has said it two different ways but you seem to think he's said two different things.
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Tell you what, gunnie. I'm a liar and a cheat, and never to be trusted. OK? Now, do you have anything to say, that might be vaguely of interest the average gardener?
--

- Billy

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
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Why yes I do billy.
Thank you for correcting that part of the lies you told Martin in your diatribe.
This lastest plausible denial trick with the lower case g you think is so cute is very disrespectable to my sister service's senior enlisted ranks. Once again, you assume you knew what you are talking about? Ever serve, billy?
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http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths/Amendments%204.pdf
Ummmm. I really, really object to her first paragraph, viz: "the myths surrounding the amendment of soil prior to woody plant installation are vast and firmly rooted. Soil amendment recommendations are found in the building healthy soil genre of popular literature and consist of sweeping generalizations regarding the benefits and uses of organic soil amendments.
That description is in fact itself a myth, or at the very best, it is a gross generalisation of the views held by organic gardeners.
I don't know anyone who gardens organically who would say that they are storing fertilisers to prevent them from washing into streams.

She's clearly writing about "excess" use of fertiliser and that is why I have soooo much trouble with her para outlining the 'myth'.
It is far too easy to use chemical fertilisers to excess but for home gardeners who use manures, they would have to use a tractor to apply excessive amounts of fertiliser given the limited percentages of nutrients there is in animal manures.
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In article

FarmI, she was talking about landscape gardeners (I think we call them cloth heads.) who load up the soil with organic material (OM) because they read on a website that it was the thing to do. She was talking in quantities up to 33% of the soil as OM. For vegetable gardeners of any size that would require a skip loader, if you amended down 6 inches. Which is the other thing that she hammered on was amending below the root zone, especially near water. Not only would the land sink as the OM returned to CO2 and H2O but the nutrients would run-off in the manner that we condemn chemferts for.
She did four article on soil amendments (three of which I found) and I don't think you would find her exasperation so grating, if you read the first two, first, just to keep it in context.
Glad to hear you have a good baker near by. We just got one in our little town. (The town is small but there are lots of little properties around because this used to be a summer home area for people from San Francisco back in the 30s.) I particularly like baguettes, but most bakers in the area just took to calling their standard loaf a baguette. Some of them have a tough crust and a chewy interior (anything but French bread). Others put a plastic bag over them to keep them from drying out (Oy:o(. Our new baker is pretty good, but still not quite there yet with the interior of the bread.
I'm starting to fiddle with baking, just because white flour is so devoid of nutrients. Anyway, enjoy the rain. It's our turn for some warm sunshine now ;O)
--

- Billy
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Of course she is! And THAT ideed is central to my point about her first para!
She was talking in

Yes. That is why I made the point about having to use a tractor to overload a garden with organic nutrients.

No, she would still have grated. Any piece of work of that is presented as that one is in terms of the Myth and the Reality, and can be read as a stand alone piece SHOULD make clear in the first para what the hell is going to be discussed. In neither the title or the Myth section does she make clear which group of soil amenders she is talking about that only comes to mind as one wades through the guts of the doco. Loose and sloppy stuff without that precision.
Mind you, she's not on her own there. It seems that more and more people with an academic background have limited literacy skills and cannot tell the difference between a gerund and a split infinitive.

It's freezing here today and I've got a rug on my knee as I type. I should get out and do some digging or humping and toting just to get the blood circulating.
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wrote in message

Good day to you both.
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And a pleasant day to you Sir.
--

- Billy
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What sort of links are you after? Presumably edible, but do you have climate preferences or edible preference or......
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wrote in message

Zone 8a WA State, between Sound Puget sound area and the foothills of Mt. Rainier. lots of good water, little sun, tall trees, offsite imported soils, 9x12 Green house and several beds, raised and yes, creosote and green lumbers. No detectable arsenic leeching!
Lots of containers to move around and manage. Pretty fair hand at cooking. Looking at more exotics to cook up. Presently have over 50-60 going. Want to double that collection by next year. Controlled Environment Agriculture and Hydroponics/Aquaponics are great interests, as well as ancient methods, especially the Amerindian and MesoAmerica, Asian and Persian. Ancient Shaman and herbal healing medicine lore, so the Desert SW is also a logical interest. Plant propagation/seed collection is another interest that I am just startin, . having problems with galangal taking root right now. Lemon grass... got all 12 stick to root. Lemon trees are growing well, can't find a Kariff lime tree up here. My have to order some stock as well as the Seville Orange. Peppers are another great interest, want to collect & grow more varieties of these, yet these are tough to do up here.
Oh yea...Sagan's Fine Art of Boloney Detection is sage advice I like to follow. I follow Dr. Lynette Morgan of Growing Edge Mag, Dr. Linda Chalker-Scott is pretty good read. Also, follow the Aztlan on http://www.famsi.org/listinfo.html , plus some cooking blogs. Damn good Photog, if I may say, cut my teeth long before Digital came along.
As I said, looking for some sage writers from some of the State's Ag colleges, good mag writers, perhpas some of the State's Master Gardener mags/periodicals.
You, what do you like?
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