grafting, can it be done or is it a science fiction?

Page 1 of 2  
Somebody knowledgeable in grafting probably will laugh at this, but, please, dont. Anyway, here is what I want I know and what I want to do: What I know can be done:(even I have never done that) make pears grow on apple tree by attaching a branch from pear tree to the trunk or spot on apple tree wher the aple tree branch is coming from.
Now questions.
#1. Will this scenarioo work? I cut out 10-15 cm of the skin from the branch of apple tree; just the skin not going deep in the wood. Then I take apple leaves; water, blend it in the blender a little bit until I have a paste. Put this paste in the pouch made from cooton towel. Put in the pouch a seedling of apple tree with some soild soil. Make sure the seedlings go thru the hole in the pouch as if it would look when you buy it from the store; just instead of the pot it is in the pouch. Place the pouch on the top of tree "wound". Tie it up to the branch with wet piece of the same towel. Tie it up. Keep it moist. Can I expect the new apple tree penetrate the branch, fuse with it, and starting to grow?
#2. You probably ask why all this so complicated, when it can be done much easier with regular grafting. Reason for that is that, if the answer to question # 1 is "yes"; what I really want is to try instead of planting apple tree; what I want is to try something like plant a tomato plant on the branch of equaliptyus tree. Now it is probably from the realm of scince fiction or is it possible?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

#2 is a no...
You can generally only successfully graft plants of similar family groups. IE, pears and apples, or apricots, peaches, plums, nectarines, or just about any cactus/succulent on cactus stalks.
For tomatoes, you might be able to graft them to peppers or potatoes?
But, why?????? They grow so quickly on their own and with greenhousing, can sometimes be wintered over.
--
Peace!
Om

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch"
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:

For the original poster: where did you ever get this crazy idea?

You forgot about the part where you induce lightning to strike the tree at the appropriate time to bring it to life.

I suggest you take a crash course on plant biology. You have some crazy ideas.

Correct.

If you are stating there is no advantage to do grafting, I can easily explain that, but I'm not sure that is what you are saying.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
1.<<You can generally only successfully graft plants of similar family groups. IE, pears and apples, or apricots, peaches, plums, nectarines,

What does it mean "generally". Do you mean there are exceptions to this rule? Can you, please, give me example of exceptions?
2.<< For the original poster: where did you ever get this crazy idea?>> I have to admit the crazy idea is mine, even I am almost sure somebody else had this idea before me. If you ask why, I can explain. Think about this. To grow 20 tomato plants you rpbably need an area about 10 square feet. Maybe 15, maybe 5. But the tree has a lot of branches and the trunk probably grows from 2-3 square feet area. If you can plant couple of tomato plants on every branch, you would be able to produce a lot of tomates from smal acreage. Correct?
I know it sound crazy, I know that, you do not have to persuade me, but my question is not about is it crazy or not. My question is about is it possible or not?
Probably, the first guy that wanted to make people fly was asked same question, Are you crazy? Maybe even have been placed in mental asylum. Or burned. Still there were enough crazies trying to understanf why not. And the end result is that airplane came out. And nobody considers it crazy anymore. And doesn laugh. Is not that right?
So, maybe if the people answering would be the ones specializing in genetics they may be less sarcastic?
sherwindu wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I stated that due to updates in technology. ;-) Gene splicing.
If you have access and/or ability to do gene splicing, just about anything is possible. It's kind of a scary area actually!

No. You cannot use standard grafting methods to graft tomato vines onto a eucalyptus. I'd have to look up the family that Eucalyptus is in to find compatible trees/plants. As a general rule, only plants in related families can be grafted successfully.
Kinda like crossbreeding in the animal world. If you decide to have sex with a goat, she will not "take" and produce a half-human, half-goat offspring. The same works in the plant world. They have to be somewhat related to be compatible. Hope that helps a bit?
Now if you can do gene splicing, you may be able to combine tomato and eucalyptus genes, then all bets are off. But, what would you end up with?

Go back to school and get into plant gene research, then go to work for Monsanto. ;-) Curiosity is not a sin.

Seriously, take a good botany course and study plant taxonomy. At this point in time (barring bizarre lab experiments with special equipment), us mundane folks can only do grafting with plants in related families using standard grafting methods.
Do go pick up a good book on plant propagation. Rodale's is a good place to look for a start. :-)
Some of our best and brightest scientists are nuts, so I'm going to cut you some slack. <lol> Plus, I've had a LOT of basic science courses in college including two semesters of botany....
--
Peace!
Om

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch"
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I can't see the point in grafting tomatoes... The plants grow so quickly and can be easily and rapidly stem propagated from simple cuttings at selected nodes.
Just seems to be silly to me. :-) But, I've done extensive tomato cutting propagation back in college when I worked in the greenhouse for my botany professor. I was able to create 40 healthy tomato plants off of 3 medium sized starts.
But, I did cheat a bit as I had access to auto-sprayers on the benches. ;-) I think I could do it on my own now using a hand sprayer but I'm dying to try hydroponics one of these years!
There is nothing on gods green earth like a vine ripe tomato.
<sigh>
--
Peace!
Om

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch"
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:

That's only because you haven't yet tried a tomato scented with eucalyptus! ;-)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

EWWWWWW <shudders>
--
Peace!
Om

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch"
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I do not think it would smell or taste worse then the one that is artificially ripened and sold all over US in every supermarket.
And so many people do not know any other. :)
Steve wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

You could with the right technique graft apples and pears with some degree of success.

Sounds crazy to me. Where on earth did you get this from?

You will not have any joy trying to graft widely different species together, the only reason apples and pears might work is that they are closely related.
BTW what is an "equaliptyus tree" ? If you mean "eucalyptus" no chance with a tomato.
David
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

#1 sounds like the OP has seen some air layering. Some significant issues to overcome would include the fact that apple leaves do not contain undifferentiated (stem) cells. In order to clone, these are necessary. They can be found in buds and in cambium, but not in leaves. Therefore the apple leaves can not develop roots, bark or any other type of cell. Science fiction.
#2 Tomatoes and eucalytpus are about as closely related as giraffes and goldfish. Different genes, chromosomes and physiology, not to mention how difficult it would be to pick tomatoes from 90 feet in the air. Bad science fiction.
--
elizabeth, Baton Rouge, LA
http://community.webshots.com/user/elott63
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Thanks for reply.
1.<< #1 sounds like the OP has seen some air layering>> 1a. what is "OP"? 1b. what is "air layering" 1c. Do you mean that I am "OP" and have seen some "air layering" that looks like procedure I have described in making the mash from the leaves? Maybe I am an "OP", whatever it means (hope nothing bad). But I definitely did not see "air layering". The reason I have come out with this idea is very simple. If you have a cut, before it heals there is some kind of liquid coming to surface of the wound. Not only healing process needs it but I am sure it is faster with it than without it. If you use analogy more to the plant you would try to do same thing with the plant. When the wound on human body heals, even there is some foreign body (e.g. splinter) in the wound, the juice will cover it and wound will heal even there is a foreign body inside The wound. I would think that something similar will happen with the plant and even better since the plants are more primitive than animals the process of fusion must be more successfull than with the species from animal kingdom. So, this is where my idea comes from. Again, I am sure that somebody who does grafting may see a lot of obstacles in this. This is Ok, because I am almost sure that answer lies somewhere between gardening and genetics. I am just trying to get information from people versed in gardening, so when next time I will try this issue with people versed in genetics I will be able to use terminology from gardening (e.g. buds, "cambium", "OP", "air layering")
2. <<apple leaves do not contain undifferentiated (stem) cells. In order to clone, these are necessary. They can be found in buds and in cambium, but not in leaves. >> 2a.<<undifferentiated (stem) cells)>> Can you, please in couple of words explain to me what does it mean "undifferentiated (stem) cells)". As apposed to "differentiated (stem) cells"? Can you give me example from the plants of "differentiated stems cells"?

2b.are you saying that if I try buds or "cambium" I have better chance than leaves? 2c. What is "cambium"?
Thanks again. Please, do not use my ignorance in the issues, that seems obvious to you. against me. I am just interested and want to try things without going to school. I do not have time for that and also think that simple things that you do in garden do not need an university degree. If it would, than how all our ancestors were able at the time when there was not even "public school" concept domesticate animals and breed plants that we use today. And most of it has happened 10,000 to 20,000 years ago, when there was not yet a written language around. Would not you agree that people that did it did not have formal education in genetics or biology? So, if they could why we can not? You would not think that "education hurts" and we are less intelligent than they have been?
3<<tomatoes from 90 feet in the air>> 3.aFirst, why 90? why not 10-15? something that is easy to reach. 3.bSecond, who has said that you would have to climb to pick it up? Maybe it is cheaper to shake the tree and catch it in soft net? An then just carefully unfold the net and it all roll in in some kind of bunker? Also only the tomatoes that are ripe enough to fall down from shaking? Maybe depending on how strong is the shaking you can insure only certain degree of ripeness? Would not you want to eat ripe tomatoes instead of green being picked up? Maybe the tomato that grows this way will be not only sweet but also hard enough? This way you do not have to pick up individual tomatoes? Also this way they do not fall on the soil and get spoiled before you pick them up.? 3c.Who has said that the only right way to pick up tomatoes is to walk between the rows and use your hands? I have been driving and have seen some kind of combain that goes , cuts complete plant, chews it up and spits out the leaves and branches on one side and tomato on the other. Probably very expensive machine, but it does work, and can do in one day what probably 200-300 people in a day do.
3d.Would not you think that instead of watering an acre, if you water it from the top of the tree you would have to water just 100-200 square feet?
4.<<90 feet in the air>> 4.aAt 90 feet I would plant something that when living and doing some excretion, would benefit the tomatoes living at 10-15 feet. Maybe something that excreets some additional food the tomatoes need. Or water. Or fertilizer? I do not know. First I want to grow the tomato at 10 feet. Then we can make next step and think how to utilize space at 20 feet.
Elizabeth wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Mark wrote:

Original Poster.

Creating a root system above the soil.

Cambium is the layer just under the bark that transmits all the nutrients for a plant. When you graft, there must be contact between the two pieces of their cambium layers for the bond to take effect.

OK, take some books out of the library. Surf the web for info.

You don't need a university degree to read some basic books. You can only graft plants of the same genetic species. Just accept that for now, and stop trying to change scientific fact. This is not the middle ages, so you can rely on this information. Look elsewhere if you want to make scientific breakthroughs.

Certain edible crops are harvested by machines that shake them. Don't think you are going to make any breakthroughs there.

I think you need some practical experience, so go ahead and start gardening and learn like most of us through experience what works and what doesn't. Also, find some good reference material on gardening. You don't have to go to college for that.
Sherwin

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ok-- please forgive the top post.....
OP means "original poster" which is helpful when several people respond to a thread with multiple thoughts.
Air layering, like grafting, is a form of asexual reproduction. Asexual propagation results in a clone or genetically identical specimen to the original. Sexual reproduction results in a new specimen with genes of both parents. Air layering is a technique which may look similar to the process you described in your original post.
Very simply, undifferentiated cells are those which have not been predestined to become a certain type of cell and therefore have the ability to develop into whatever needs to be regenerated. Differentiated cells are those that can not change. For example, apple leaves contain mature leaf cells. In order for those cells to turn into an apple tree, one or more of those cells would have to convert to meristematic condition to develop a new growing point. 'Stem cells' is short for meristems, which are those that come from embryonic cells and have never developed into specific cells with specific functions.
I suggested that harvesting tomatoes from 90 feet in the air might be difficult as a response to your suggestion that it would be interesting to graft a tomato to a Eucalyptus. Very few Eucalyptus attain a mature height of only 10-15 feet. By the way, ever try to catch a tossed vine ripe tomato from a distance of 10'? I still say science fiction to the tomato/eucalyptus graft. While there are countless theoretical, hypothetical, yet to be realized, and insightful ideas out there, I believe science has proven that you can't graft a giraffe to a goldfish successfully.
--
elizabeth, Baton Rouge, LA
http://community.webshots.com/user/elott63
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Hi All, To air layer take a branch that will bend down to the soil. Cut a slit in the stem [ branch ] at an angle, but not all the way through. Insert something in the slit to keep it open. Peg the stem down to the soil to keep it in place, use a hoop of wire like an inverted U. cover with soil, roots will grow from the slit in about 6 to 12 months. You can then serarate it from the mother plant, and you will have a new plant. Hope this helps you.
Richard M. Watkin.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
David Hare-Scott wrote:

No way, Jose!

Yes, they are both fruits. Closely related, I don't think so. I think you should sign up for the same class as the OP.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

degree
Please check your facts. If you had bothered to do so you would have come up with quite a few examples of grafting apples on to pear stock or vice versa, here are just a couple, you could find many more.
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/NAFEX/message-archives/old/msg04650.html http://web.ukonline.co.uk/suttonelms/apple33.html
...snip...

together,
Well I do think so. They are both pome fruits along with quinces, medlars and others. They are of the family rosaceae which contains (amongst others) the genera malus (apples) and pyrus (pears).
I have pears in my garden that are grafted on to quince rootstock. My apples are grafted on to apple rootstock. These combinations are common as it produces the best results NOT because apples and pears cannot be grafted together.

I think you should do some basic research before making rude comments in public about the ignorance of others.
David
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
--------------EF45434CBFFFACDB87EBC82B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
David Hare-Scott wrote:

If you read carefully, these so called 'successful' grafts were less than that. I quote:
" I have had several pears grafted onto seedling apple rootstocks(they were purchased as pear seedlings - but some were NOT!) All languished for as along as 8-9 years, but most have finally died off."

You may find references to people who have possibly had some success in initially getting a graft to take between apples and pears, but I doubt if any of these really turned out to productive trees.

I think the issue here is viable grafting. You might be able to stretch the genetics a bit with certain species to get an apple on a pear or visa versa, but that tree will never flourish and probably die off early.

What you call best, I call viable.
You picked an exceptional example. Quince is an unusual genus which has some
compatibility with pears. It cannot graft well with certain varieties of pear, so an interstem of a pear that is compatible with the top scion and the quince rootstock must be placed between them to adjust for this. This adds no weight to the degree of compatibility between apples and pears.

You may call them rude, but I think this fellow needs a reality check, and perhaps you, as well. You portray these few exceptions as the rule, giving the impression that anything goes. People tinker with mixing fruit types, but the people that sell rootstocks do not mix their apple and pear offerings, for a good reason. They mostly don't work and are not practical. Quince is another story, and people use it because it is able to dwarf a pear more than the standard pear rootstocks.
Sherwin

--------------EF45434CBFFFACDB87EBC82B Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> &nbsp; <p>David Hare-Scott wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp; <br>Please check your facts.&nbsp; If you had bothered to do so you would have come <br>up with quite a few examples of grafting apples on to pear stock or vice <br>versa, here are just a couple, you could find many more. <p><a href="http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/NAFEX/message-archives/old/msg04650.html ">http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/NAFEX/message-archives/old/msg04650.html </a></blockquote> &nbsp;&nbsp; If you read carefully, these so called 'successful' grafts were less than that.&nbsp; I quote: <p>&nbsp; " I have had several pears grafted onto seedling apple rootstocks(they were purchased as pear seedlings - but some were&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NOT!) All languished for as along as 8-9 years, but most have finally died off." <blockquote TYPE=CITE><a href="http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/NAFEX/message-archives/old/msg04650.html "></a>&nbsp; <br><a href="http://web.ukonline.co.uk/suttonelms/apple33.html ">http://web.ukonline.co.uk/suttonelms/apple33.html </a></blockquote> &nbsp;&nbsp; You may find references to people who have possibly had some success in initially <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; getting a graft to take between apples and pears, but I doubt if any of these really <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; turned out to productive trees. <br>&nbsp; <blockquote TYPE=CITE>...snip... <p>> > You will not have any joy trying to graft widely different species <br>together, <br>> > the only reason apples and pears might work is that they are closely <br>> > related. <br>> <br>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yes, they are both fruits.&nbsp; Closely related, I don't think so. <p>Well I do think so.&nbsp; They are both pome fruits along with quinces, medlars <br>and others.&nbsp; They are of the family rosaceae which contains (amongst others) <br>the genera malus (apples) and pyrus (pears).</blockquote> &nbsp;&nbsp; I think the issue here is viable grafting.&nbsp; You might be able to stretch the genetics <br>&nbsp;&nbsp; a bit with certain species to get an apple on a pear or visa versa, but that tree <br>&nbsp;&nbsp; will never flourish and probably die off early. <blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp; <p>I have pears in my garden that are grafted on to quince rootstock.&nbsp; My <br>apples are grafted on to apple rootstock.&nbsp; These combinations are common as <br>it produces the best results NOT because apples and pears cannot be grafted <br>together.</blockquote> &nbsp;&nbsp; What you call best, I call viable. <p>&nbsp;&nbsp; You picked an exceptional example.&nbsp; Quince is an unusual genus which has some <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; compatibility with pears.&nbsp; It cannot graft well with certain varieties of pear, so an <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; interstem of a pear that is compatible with the top scion and the quince rootstock <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; must be placed between them to adjust for this.&nbsp; This adds no weight to the degree <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; of compatibility between apples and pears. <blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp; <p>>&nbsp; I think you should sign up for the same class as the OP. <p>I think you should do some basic research before making rude comments in <br>public about the ignorance of others.</blockquote> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You may call them rude, but I think this fellow needs a reality check, and perhaps <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; you, as well.&nbsp; You portray these few exceptions as the rule, giving the impression <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that anything goes.&nbsp; People tinker with mixing fruit types, but the people that sell <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; rootstocks do not mix their apple and pear offerings, for a good reason.&nbsp; They mostly <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; don't work and are not practical.&nbsp; Quince is another story, and people use it because <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; it is able to dwarf a pear more than the standard pear rootstocks. <p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sherwin <blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp; <p>David</blockquote> </html>
--------------EF45434CBFFFACDB87EBC82B--
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Perhaps you should have used such moderate tones and researched arguments before instead of shooting from the hip with such bald (and wrong) statements as "no way" and "Yes, they are both fruits. Closely related, I don't think so" Then it would have been apparent that we are both saying the same thing to the OP in different ways.
David
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
sherwindu wrote:

Sherwin, Of course they are closely related. They are in the same family, the rose family (rosaceae). Within that family they are much more closely related to each other that some other members like cherry or almond for example. ... and yes way, Jose! It has been done. There are some pear varieties known to be compatible with apples and once that compatible variety is attached, any pear variety can be grafted on that interstem. It's not real practical but it can be done. Now, I happen to own a fairly large, producing pear tree that is grafted onto a mountain ash. If you doubt me, I could take pictures and post them somewhere for you to view. The graft is about 5 feet up from the ground so it is easy to see.
Steve
PS to the original poster: Pears and mountain ash are a lot more closely related that tomato and eucalyptus, so don't get your hopes up!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.