Wood for framing a waterproof deck?

[Rima Neas]

Last question, I promise... the final plans for my deck, about 800 sf, calls for a waterproof surface that will be tiled. Ok, that is a lot of work, but Noble or Schluter will do the trick. But what about the framing, should I go for pressure treated or just stay with DougFir? What about the underside of the ply (sturdifloor) sheathing?

One end is about 8ft off grade, the other just 18inches, so I cannot easily paint the entire framing after it is done. I also want this whole thing to last 20yrs with little maintenance. Around here, (NorCal) PT is about 2x the price. Termites are everywhere, but mostly subterranean ones.

What would you use for your own deck?

Cheers, Shawn

[Bill]

Sure would not tile it. Gonna crack... Why not use the composite 1X6 deck boards????? Termites can not eat it.

[Rima Neas]

I did look into CorrectDeck for a while, expensive and not that pretty--but I would know how to frame for that :-) I am hoping the tile will last if I frame it like a tank and put in expansion joints, sheer membrane, etc. Besides, I prefer the look.

Do you think tiles will crack even if properly built?

Cheers, Shawn

[Dennis]

Vinyl. Looks good, never rots or splinters, no chemicals to leach, no real maintenance (semi-annual cleaning). Considering a wood deck should be sealed once a year, to could be less expensive in the long run (did I mention it's a lot less work to maintain.)

[Michael Bulatovich]

ROTFLMAO

[Alan]

[Rima Neas]

Great suggestions, thanks.

A mud job, especially one that big, is beyond my skill level. So I was planning to go with 2 layers of 3/4" T&G under some exterior CBU then a waterproof membrane, followed by tile. The plywood flooring is $19/sheet around here but the PT is $50--ouch. I am still not clear whether primed and painted joists are sufficient for a long life, given the waterproofing, or whether I should go with PT joists too.

Cheers, Shawn

[Alan]

If the framing is exposed to the weather, then you might have to used treated lumber to meet code requirements. In our area deck framing must be treated now. The price of hot mop is surprisingly cheap given the messing asphalt that the guys work with. If you use treated lumber for the framing, and do a hot mop over preserved and painted exterior grade plywood, you should have a structure to last a long time. But, the treated ply is even better. In my case, I only needed

2 4x8 sheets, so the price factor was easy to dismiss as the price of wanting something that won't rot as long as I'm alive.

sizeable deck to tile, but in my case, I have a small over

[M&S]

Yeah, me too...

Mark

[M&S]

I dont have any first hand experience with this but thinking about it logically, as long as your waterproofing remains sound, the framing below is dry. It sounds like a no brainer to not use treated. You dont frame an interior space that is to be mud job/tiled with treated lumber for fear of your tile job leaking. Shower mud jobs are done over untreated lumber daily. I would opt to spend the treated budget reducing defelction to save the tile job above.

Schulters tech. dept. would surely have some input on it.

It sounds like a bit of paranoia, belt & suspenders, not sure so double it, over engineering, to me. But again, the first sentence says it all.

Mark

[Mike]

looks good - nope never rots -everyting eventually rots splinters - it can no chemicals to leech - i guess you've never SMELT fresh vinyl have you?

[Dennis]

Ummmm, looks exactly like wood, can't really tell until you get right up on it. To me it looks like teak. (You're not thinking of the white-colored stuff are you?)

[Dennis]

Looks and textured like wood. What's not to like?

Ever see a PVC draingae pipe rotted?

Not without abuse, not under normal conditions.

Yes, and it's still inert. Smell does not equal leaching. The smell of vinyl right after it's molded is a function of curing. After its cured, it's totally inert. This is NOT true of treated wood. It's salts and chemicals will leach out for many, many years.

I simpler analogy would be to ask, what would you rather use for drainage piping, PVC or treated wood?

It will outlast wood by decades, never splits or rots (unless abused, whereas wood will crack and split by nature), does not leach chemicals (whereas treated wood will leach, and in most cases are poisonous). As far as looks, look at the 'wood colored/textured' vinyl. Looks & feels (within reason) just like real wood.

I've had wood decks and now vinyl. There is no comparison as far as ease and maintenance. It looks good (I do not like the white plastic, but I could live with it), and I would not hesitate to use it on my next house. Wood is a pain to care for after it's a few year old. Splinters, stains, cleaning, etc., it's just not worth the time and effort when a more advance product is available.

[Michael Bulatovich]

Clever rhetorical device!

[Michael Bulatovich]

Stop! You're breaking me up.

[M&S]

Sounds like you may be talking about high quality composite decking (rhino and the like). I would agree that it can look really nice though I dont consider it "vinyl".

For environmental reasons we have used composite decking almost exclusively for about 15 years now unless a customer wants to pay the added cost for exotics. For a long time you could buy Mahoghany (Kayu) decking for the same for the same money as high end composite but in the past 5 years composites are far cheaper than most wood decking (other than treated which isnt even in the same class)

Composites have many other advantages too, many are 100% recycled, stability, and of course low maintenance. They also have disadvantages in that they can be very prone to stains, dealing with expansion can be a chore on long runs, and they dont often look good in winter months with the joints all gapped out.

I guess the work "vinyl" is what threw me.

Mark

[M&S]

Though it doesnt apply to decking, there are studies now clearly showing that plastics do leach. Its why we have recently been hearing murmurings from the scientific and medical industry about not reusing plastic jugs, not to consume drinking water from plastic jugs and bottles left in the sun (on the dash or seat of your car) and so on. Many plastics do infact leach. Many of these materials, once in your body, will be there forever as your body has absoutely no capability to rid itself of them. Only time will tell what the long term effects of them will be but I have a pretty good feeling it wont be good. I am sure the industry already knows this and this is why there are all sorts of "dont reuse this bottle" labels that werent there 5 years ago.

Mark

[Bob Morrison]

My favorite composite is Correct Deck, which is a polypropylene/wood composite.

[M&S]

We have yet to use correct deck. It has seemed to us most of them are on par with each other other than color, surface, and % recycled content. Trex, Certainteed Boardwalk, Rhino, LP's WeatherBest, several in the Timbertek line, are some of the ones we have been installing.

We just finished our second deck using Rhino and really like the new woodgrains though they seem to scratch very easily. I was almost exclusively using Certainteed Boardwalk because it was a smooth surface not trying to simulate wood but it has become scarce in our area for some reason. The smooth surfaces feel really nice under foot when you are bare foot or sock footed. I have never been too keen on "non-wood" materials trying to look like wood because it seems to always be a problem with the homeowner. That said, the rhino and new timbertek textures seem to look nice.

The bonus to the woodgrain is that unless you do a flawless job installing the smooth surface products goofs or blemishes stick out something awful on such a uniform/monolithic deck surface. The woodgrain products offer a bit more of a fudge factor in that they confuse the eye a bit for you.

Mark

[Bob Morrison]

Mark:

Correct Deck has a Young's Modulus that is 5X that of Trex. This makes it

5X as stiff for a given section.

I'm think of using it as the floor of my utility trailer. Either that or IPE.