Re: Vertical Farming.

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He spelt tranny rong. :-)
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The lack of ability to communicate in this thread is sad in a way. Not unforeseeable, but sad. There's so much idealized romanticizing of how things were in the past. Ken and Don are pulling away from people, moving to more remote parts, in an attempt to insure that every little thing is just the way they like it, and WW is attempting to become part of a community with the idea that he might like it. There's no 'wrong' here, but there is the question of openness.
If someone starts something new with a fresh mind and hopes of enjoying the experience, the odds are pretty good that they will. Will it be perfect? Dumb question, but it'll be as good as they need. If someone goes into something with preconceived notions of how it will be and waiting for things to go South, well, of course they will. It's such a cliche that people don't even hear it anymore when someone says that you should be open to life. It's a mindset that can easily make any encounter in a pleasing/satisfying one.
The idea that anyone in this day and age really has a clue what it was like to live totally on their own is an odd one, yet that's what people desire, or at least talk about it. People talk about wanting to be independent, and captain of their own ship. They want to be rough and ready and self sufficient.
There are rare birds that spin their own cloth, and make their own butter, that hack down some trees when they need some heat, a wing on the cabin or a new boat, but the vast majority pine for days that existed only in their imagination. People came together into groups and communities for reasons not solely limited to whelping and safety. People enjoy the fruits of communal living. Mary makes some killer jam, and Steve can work wonders with wood. That's one sound basis. How about sitting around a fire and singing - anyone ever do that by themselves? Not exactly what most people would consider fun. But toss in a couple of other people, maybe fifty, and it becomes fun. It becomes an event.
And that is what people really want out of life. They want events to mark the passage of their brief lives. They want people that can make them think, make them laugh and surprise them. That doesn't happen nearly as often with very small familial groups. It's the strange in life that makes it interesting. If you try to control everything, you'll kill the interesting unless you have a very limited definition of interesting. The idea of whose beer is it is silly. It's a concern, but it's not a big one. Communities invite people in, and ask people to leave. It's called accountability. I don't have a problem with that.
If you're married and have a family, you're already in a community, and you already know about all of the pitfalls and benefits. You already know that people rarely do exactly what you want, and that that's okay. I don't see why that mentality can't be extended towards people that don't share a bloodline.
R
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Awhile back Rico you mentioned that I am still an outsider here and you are correct. I've been here about 4.5 years now and that fact is apparent almost everyday. But the distance between 4.5 years and forever is becoming smaller everyday. Two months ago my neighbor across the road, Muff, had his 50th birthday party and we were invited and all of his extended family and many of his friends were there and he made it his job to introduce us to all of them. It was interesting, especially with 2 kegs of Coors on hand. I don't drink but that night I did, about 18 of them if my memory serves. At the end of the night we all went back to our tracts. Thats the nice part, we don't have to put up with each other if we don't want to - we have enough space between us to avoid friction. Since that night I have seen several of those partiers out and about and we exchange howdy's and small talk and our networks have been further reinforced. You are correct in that no man is an island, for very long, and I understand that and never wanted that. Nor do I want to cohabitate with people less than 20 feet from me for the rest of my life like I was forced to do in Florida. No kidding, I have looked out my bathroom window in FL many times and saw someone looking back at me, from less than 20 feet away. Unnerving. I like some space. I'm estimating it is around 600-800 feet from Muff's front door to mine as the crow flies and its similar with the other 2 neighbors around me, give or take. The neighbor behind us is more than a mile away.
I'm wanting some (junk) bicycles for a project I want to create and have been watching all of the usual sources. Well just today one of the people I met at the party dropped in at my place of business and asked if I would create some things on my lathe for him. He learned about my lathe at the party. I told him I would and in the lengthy conversation about this and that I told him about my project and that I'm looking for bikes. As it turns out he has 2 bikes in the barn that his kids have outgrown and I was welcome to them. A little more chit chat and a deal was struck. I am going to turn 20 walnut carrying handles for some WWI vintage watercooled 30 caliber machine guns he and some of his friends collect and I am going to get 2 24" mountain bikes. What a deal.
But you know what? 600-800 feet may not be enough. Coming from suburbania to ruralville, 600-800 seemed enough, but now the goalposts have moved. I am now ruralated in my mind and body so I naturally have a different perspective. I'm seeing signs of what I'll call *societal creep*. Thats where some of the things I detest which are associated with suburban and urban areas are making their cameo appearance around here. There is only 1 fast food joint in this whole county, a McDonalds, and it is more than 8 miles from my house, but this past week I have seen 3 instances of McDonalds trash on the road I live along. 3 times this week people have been driving on my road and found it necessary to throw their entire set of McDonalds trash out on the road. What in the hell is wrong with people? Last week at 3:30am I woke up and was wide awake so I went ahead and got up and got dressed, then I went outside in the low 30's weather and went for a stroll down through the woods behind our house. Well just as I was walking out the front door, here comes a loud assed truck down the hill at 50mph not giving one shit about the people that were sleeping. I have more examples of this *societal creep* but my point is made. It may be time for us to move on. Interestingly enough, my wife posed this to me about 3 or 4 months ago and emailed me a link to a fixer- upper in Utah for $70k, which we could purchase outright, move into it, fix it up and rent the house we currently reside in to others for some buffer coin. I've looked at this Utah house on Earth Google and there is plenty of distance from all of the neighbors, more than a mile.
5 years ago, when I turned 50, I realized, finally, that I am never going to be a rock star, I am never going to be wealthy, I am never going to have sex with more than 3 females at one time, and I am never going to be world famous. So I turned inward and decided to go for the only thing that is really tangible, my peace of mind. But is that permanently attainable? Maybe not, but I'm going to keep trying, and all along the way I'm going to cultivate friendships and help as many people as I can, cause that's just the way I do stuff.
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Stanley, Idaho. Stanley, North Dakota. A pattern is being established. It was a unique circumstance a long time ago.
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Then there's that nasty human trait - laziness - that must always be contended with. This was prevalent back in the 60's in the hippie commune days. Nobody wanted to do anything and everything fell into a state of disrepair. I think it was Paul Hirst, 3dPeruna, that stated something about the number of people involved effects the overall performance. That is, the more people involved the greater the chance of disorganization. I suppose that that is why, over the longview, the (married) couple has been the most successful joint venture - the least amount of people working toward a common goal. As a rule I mainly resist *groups* and the larger the group the more I resist. I am in a woodworker group with about 30 members total and there is mainly chaos cause nobody is in control, or rather, everybody thinks they are in control. I rarely attend the meetings because of this. I am also involved in a joint venture with one other person that has lasted for almost 3 decades and it has been successful because both parties know the rules and responsibilties and adhere to them strictly.
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"Ken S. Tucker"> wrote:

People have no problem using animal shit for manure but have serious issues with using their own, go figure.
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On Wed, 3 Nov 2010 09:40:59 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com"

Do you have any idea what happens with the residue from your local sewage treatment plant? Revenue generated from sales to farmers goes a long ways to keeping your service costs down. Granted, it is treated to neutralize potentially hazardous micro-organisms (certain bacteria, etc.). I do know that waste from high cantagion risk veterinary facilities is boiled before it goes into the sewer for the safety of sewage treatment plant workers.
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I've heard some things, none of which I like. I was speaking though on a more personal level, such as that from a book titled "Humanure", look it up. I think is available as a free download and I have it somewhere on one of my hard drives. My problem, at that level, is that we are largely forced to consume food that has many unneccassary and harmful chemicals in it so using the human manure to fertilize food seems to compound the problem. If one could manipulate their environment so as to consume only natural foods then perhaps the humanure method would work, once you get past the psychological part.
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Yes. And you don't have to pay attention much to see all sorts of people including you in their scenarios. Next thing you know they're demanding you pay *your fair share* for the restitution or whatever. My answer? Go collect it from the *we* they were talking about earlier. It's another one of them weasel words invented by spineless cowards too scared to say what they really mean. Another one: *society* Look how that word has been manipulated completely out of context so that it doesn't mean anything anymore.
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