Which chisel?

[nailshooter41]

You don't have to buy junk, but you should know there is a real line in the sand when it comes to tool steel and its utility use.

Chisels are made from just about every kind of steel, depending on the make r and their specs. But the real story to steel is its designed uses and it s heat treatment when annealing/tempering. I am a confessed steel junky, n ot as bad as I once was... but still... good steel makes me happy.

LN's A1 is no more than "OK". For the money you spend, they should be grea t, not just good. My personal experience with them wasn't great. Most of your air hardening steels such as A1, O1, etc., aren't that good at holding an edge but were developed (in the case of A1, in Japan) for tool/die work that required good abrasion resistance and toughness. I like O1 for cutti ng tools more than A1, but of the three I like D2 best and have purchased s everal cutting tools with in D2 and its finer carbides hold and edge better (when properly treated) than most other tool steel. I really like D2, but it is too hard for most to sharpen.

BTW, the "meh, OK" remark about LN chisels is also shared by Fine Woodworki ng:

So what to do? You can go to the best steel such as the Crucible metals or the newer high speed tools that use M2, etc. and give away a pay check per chisel, or you can compromise.

When I started doing woodwork in a shop 40+ years ago, all the chisels were 1095, 1084, and some of the heavy "slicks" were 5200. A few of the chisel s I used later had extra vanadium in their formula, but were still just car bon steels.

I hate to sound so pedestrian, but they worked just fine. The old chisels were softer than I liked being hardened only to about 55 or so on the Rockw ell scale, but that also made them easy to sharpen, hone and touch up.

There are good values on these chisels out there if as pointed out before y ou do some scouting on your own. For example:

or

These types of chisels can do the work you want and you can probably get th em at a good price. Might take a few tries, but then again it might not.

I understand the money crunch as much as anyone, and I don't think you shou ld deny yourself the fun of using a sharp chisel (even if you have to touch it up more than the more expensive models), one that was made for a specif ic job. By the way, a paring chisel is a great choice for the work you desc ribed, but you should know that if you are only working on material 1/2" th ick, a butt chisel with the bevel eased back a bit on the edge will work ju st fine.

The chisels to stay away from no matter how tempting are the new Buck Broth ers, and in that line nothing newer than about 25 years old. No Sears Comp anion line, although I have been pleased with utility value of their old ro und handled butt chisel line. No generic "Sheffield brand" which are now s old as a brand, not as a particular steel product. No Harbor Freight. No off brands that are poorly milled and poorly finished.

One last thing, check this out for a ton of really valuable information and some good opinions:

e-Needed

Good luck!

Robert

[krw]

Thanks for all of that (saved), Robert. How does one go about determining what one is buying? Obviously expensive doesn't mean good. One would think LN would be pretty decent, given that their prices are in the Festoolsphere.

[notbob]

I thought the article raved about "LN" (I'm assuming Lie-Nielsen) chisels, although I didn't read the entire article (gotta join).

Likewise. Great info.

I have this Narex paring chisel in 1/4":

Seems like everyone is selling a different brand, yet not both of the two things I need ('zuki saw + 3/8" bench chisel). Is that Grizzly Japanese wannabe (not Matsumura) any good? It's still under $20.

I figure the Narex paring chisel will do the job, I jes need a 3/8" "bench"(?) chisel to "cut" the wood slots from both sides. I'm looking at coping saws, too.

I also acquired an old backsaw from a cheapo mitre saw set. It's all rusty, but I got plenty of wet/dry.

Right now, I gotta order some parts fer my old Workmate 225.

Thnx fer all the great info. ;)

nb

[krw]

I was at Highland, looking at chisels, last Wednesday but didn't buy anything - confused (too many choices ;-). I'll probably be back Thursday (have to be in the area to see a surgeon about a scary-sharp knife). I'll probably look again.

Try Highland and if you're ever in Atlanta, it's an awesome store. They carry the whole line of green tools, in the store, too. ;-)

My miter saw isn't all that cheap but it's not a backsaw. I don't use it much anymore.

I think I have that model. It's pretty battle scarred, too. Not sure where it is, though.

[graham]

When you try your first dovetails, use a soft wood and don't use oak! I was taught by a German and they always cut the pins first. I did that for a red oak box and had a helluva job cutting the tails in that coarse-grained hard wood. I should have cut the tails first, English style. Graham

[notbob]

I've heard so many opinions, it's like ....well, ya' know..... ;)

I've seen that technique on U2B. Some guy w/ a jillion dollar backsaw sez cut pins first, then use finished pins and a pencil to lay out slots (mortises?).

I would, eventually, like to make a cabinet spkr enclosure for a tube amplifier head. I once had a Mesa Boogie ina dove-tailed cabinet made of koa wood. Gorgeous. :)

nb

[krw]

Tails.

You can do a marvelous woodworking job on a speaker cabinet and still have it sound like crap. Particle board makes a better enclosure, anyway.

[graham]

As KRW says, use veneered particle board. Koa will cost you waaaaaay more than your chisels:-) Graham

[John McCoy]

notbob wrote in news: [e-mail]:

How old? And how rusty?

In many cases, rather than spending effort polishing up an old saw, just using it to cut wood will remove the surface rust and leave a nice patina.

What you really want to worry about is if it's sharp. If it's fairly modern, it's probably made from an induction- hardened steel that will resist sharpening, but if it's older it would be worth grabbing a saw file and sharpening it. Ideally you'd have a saw vise to hold it, but you can clamp it between a couple of boards. There's a knack to saw sharpening, but it's not that hard to get it.

John

[John McCoy]

" [e-mail]" wrote in news: [e-mail]:

An interesting opinion (I assume you meant "A2" rather than "A1", since A1 doesn't seem to exist). I have always understood that high chromium steels are basically impossibly to sharpen on normal stones, and can only be ground.

I also note that Ron Hock, who has some reputation in the field of tool blades, favors A2 and O1 over other steels.

According to the link you cited, FWW rated the LN chisels "best western style", which doesn't exactly sound like "meh". I'd guess LN selected the steel they use to have a good tradeoff between durability and ease of sharpening (I looked for my copy of that issue of FWW to see if there was more detail, but as usual it seems the issue I want is missing from the stack).

I do have a set of the LN chisels. I save them for fine work, so I can't really speak to their durability. I have a set of old Marples for day-to-day use.

Incidenly, notbob should be happy to know FWW rated the Narex brand "best value".

John

[notbob]

Thnx. My WW vocabulary is still evolving.

One of the reasons I sold the MB. Not only was that koa wood not great, sonically, it was damn heavy, too. It was a special 100W 1x12 combo amp and between the super large magnet on the spkr and the heavy koa wood, the lil' sucker weighed in at over 80lbs. I'm gettin too old fer that kinda nonsense.

I now play thru a small tube practice amp (5W Bugera) that is made of PB. Sucker is pretty solid, but I've yet to spill a beer on it and we all know a R&R amp ain't right until it's had beer spilled on it. ;)

nb

[krw]

Particle board is pretty heavy but if you want it heavier, fill the enclosure with sand (seriously).

I don't do beer anymore but I doubt coke[*] would do it much good either (unless you sweep it up quickly ;-).

[*] I'm so far past beer, it's caffeine free diet, for me.

[John McCoy]

krw wrote in news:271fibhcnvqkvg59pj63ru2vcdvkrnd9e1@

4ax.com:

In a rock-and-roll context, that probably didn't come out quite the way you intended it.

(yeah, I know, you meant Atlanta's favorite beverage).

John

[Dr. Deb]

Then there is sharpening them to 15degrees rather than 25degrees.

I got mine from Ebay and wonder why I waited so long to get one (I now have 1/4, 3/8/, 1/2, and 3/4. Just watch what you are buying.

[nailshooter41]

I DID mean A2, thanks for the catch. But you should probably tell these gu ys to knock it off:

Absolutely no doubt. Some of the best lathe turning tools (setting aside t he powdered Crucible metals) have been shop made from O1.

Middle of the pack to me, qualifies as "meh". Remember, I made it clear I love my steels. I can take a lesser steel for a lesser price, but a higher priced chisel with a premium steel needs to have that steel pushed to its limits.

From the FWW article, verbatim:

"Its mid-range length is great for controlled detail work, yet its blade is long enough for moderate-range paring. The A2 blade's durability found a s pot in the middle of the pack, but in spite of this, the ergonomics prevail ed. $50."

Certainly your experience may be different, but my personal experience alon g with their "middle of the pack" comment after testing reflect on another. Like you I wasn't interested enough to find the magazine with the exact ar ticle, so their summary made the point in just a few sentences.

Always (and this is where the LNs excel) is the consideration of how comfor table a chisel is to use. I have had some nice chisels over the years that had nice steel, but were absolutely miserable to use for anything but a bu tt chisel. Ergos all wrong, contours of the handles wrong, unbalanced in t he hand, etc., bad enough that they made the nice steel a waste of time. I never could figure out how to rehandle them, so they became beaters.

I hope if he tries them he lets us know. They seem to get a lot of good re views, but always with the caveat "especially for the price" or "can't beat these for the price" etc. The good news is you can buy them one or two at a time to try them out.

Robert

[krw]

It's probably more common in a rock-and-roll context than others. It was intended as double entendre (I didn't capitalize it intentionally). ;-)

Which one? ;-)

[John McCoy]

" [e-mail]" wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Well, that got me curious. Those guys might be refering to

303 stainless, since their spec has a lot of nickel and 303 stainless is also known as "A1" in someone's numbering system.

The A2, etc, numbering system comes from the AISI by way of the SAE. Apparently the AISI started a list sometime in the late 1940s (it's not in my 1948 Machinery's Handbook), assigning the numbers in sequence, but never actually writing a spec for them. When the SAE took over, I'm guessing they either thought A1 was obsolete, or couldn't figure out what it was intended to be, so they started at A2.

John

[nailshooter41]

At this point, who knows? There are so many steels out there being used fo r everything one can imagine it is silly. I used to read a lot about it, b ut finally just lost interest.

BLADEFORUMS is a place where makers and enthusiasts argue steel, manufactur ers, properties, designations, names and country of origins all day long, e very day.

Biting issues such as "does 440c perform as well as 9crMov?"

And is "S110v less brittle if cryo-quenched for an extended period"

Along with "154cm v. S30V, you decide after forging yourself which has bett er end results". Of course that is followed by the neanderthals that scream that since 1095 was good enough for their grandfathers, it is good enough for them. Answered by the folks that insert their own favorite steel into the discussion and question why we wouldn't use a better product if it was readily available.

They argue on and on about steel designations, its properties, the accuracy of the mills that make them, the "equivalent" steels made in other countri es to match our standards and their respective differences, and then compar e performance of each. It is common for a ABS Bladesmith to find a steel h e likes, then try his best to master it for a cutting tool, and when master ed become his trademark steel.

A few years ago they were competing to find out the weirdest things about c ommon steels, all in fun. That was a treasure trove as to be in the discus sion you had to cite your source, and not just Google. I found out that S3

0V (a great knife steel!) is actually a steel developed in Sweden for the s having razor industry. Learned that D2 was developed in the late 40s for h eavy die stamping forms such as the auto industry that was using it for doo r, trunk and hood stamps. Its abrasion and corrosion resistance led to som eone experimenting with it as a cutting steel. One guy claimed (and backed it up to the satisfaction of the group) that certain American shock absorbe r makers were using a low RC O1 as the rods in their product. They got a l etter from one of he manufacturers that confirmed it! And while they had be en making woodturning tools from the round O1 stock in shock absorbers for years, the guys that make woodturning tools had no idea it was likely O1.

Too many steels now, too many designations, and too many renames and relist ings. I don't really see how anyone could keep up with it all accurately.

Robert

[Markem]

snip of a wonderful tale

That is an engineers dream, to know your stuff inside and out better than anyone else.

But is also the reason for endless usenet "discussions" on a variety subjects.

It is human.

[notbob]

I've read baltic birch is a good tonewood and is often used for guitar amp enclosures.

BTW, it's officially a "Rock n' Roll amp", now. I spilled beer on it, last night. No real harm done, but I'm gonna make any future cabs "beer proof". ;)

nb