TREE STAND

[J T]

Not even vaguely close to what I was actually looking for.

JOAT You'll never get anywhere if you believe what you "hear". What do you "know"?.

- Granny Weatherwax

[John Grossbohlin]

Reminds me of an article in Deer and Deer Hunting where they reported on research about tree stand accidents. There was a 100% probability that you would fall out of a home made tree stand at some point... this one appears to offer nothing that would change that probability. ;~)

John

[DJ Delorie]

Maybe

?

Could be scaled up to tree-holding size.

[SHOPDOG]

WIth the gear that I have to pack in , that stand would just be way too much! Now, if I were on my own property it may be a different story. But, I prefer Blinds to stands nowadays. When I was younger and my parents had 1500 acres, my buddy and I just built stands in the trees during the summers. I bet that at least the intricate one is still there after 20 years. We would build a stand above every know travel area, food plot and bedding area. Policing 1500 acres was tough, we would find at least 5 tree stands every year, take them down-leave a note and sell them at the local flea mrkt. Although I did keep the Loggy! If I ever get my hands on a good chunk of land I'm going to put up box blinds on tripod stands.

SD

[Mike Marlow]

Well now that would be an article to include in the "Bullshit" category. People have been hunting out of home made tree stands for longer than, and in greater numbers than they have from manufactured tree stands. I have two fairly simple ladder type stands set up out back which I built, and I would be really curious how any self proclaimed expert could suggest why a manufactured stand would offer any greater protection against falling. Far too many hunters have hunted from home made tree stands for far too many years, without falling out, for this idiot to be any more than an idiot writer who really did no "research".

[John Grossbohlin]

Could be... but the data was allegedly from a national sample and a large number of accidents. The article sited bunches of issues with various types of stands and covered a period of years rather than using anecdotal "data" from a local sample in one season. As with any research I'm sure a skilled researcher could poke holes in the methodology but for what it was it appeared reasonable.

Deterioration of the wood and inadequate fastening were the primary problems with the stand themselves but they also sited the near universal lack of fall restraint harnesses as common to the home made stands. The implication was that the users were being more frugal that was reasonable to insure their own safety.

I knew two guys who took dives out of homemade stands... one of them fatal. In both cases the evidence pointed to slippery footing on the wet wood platform encountered while getting into the stand with no fall restraints in use. The survivor told me wet leaves on the platform caused him to slip and fall some 18 feet to the ground. The victim of the fatal fall was found unconscious and died several weeks later never having regained consciousness.

As I recall, ladder stands were the safest. Me personally, I'll stick with my blow-down ground-blind and still hunting with binoculars using the terrain and wind to my advantage. It's exciting to sneak up on them in their beds while still hunting...

John

[Mike Marlow]

All the more reason to dismiss this article. I don't dispute that over a long period of time home made wooden tree stands that are neglected pose greater risks than manufactured stands, but any report that ignores the overwhelming use of home made tree stands without accidents over time is questionable at best. If the report has stated that stands which were never maintained in any way decayed over time (duh...), or that of the accidents that happened, more people fell out of them than manufactured stands because fewer users of home made stands use harnesses, or the likes, that would be one thing. But to publish that 100% of the people who use home made tree stands will suffer an accident - or was it a fall... simply ignores the longstanding reality of deer hunting.

I'd agree with those as observations, but not to the conclusions drawn that you posted.

And... I know of people who shot themselves on the ground. I know of people who fell from manufactured stands. I know of incidents where people where hung by their harness. The list goes on. Those would be the anecdotal references.

I like still hunting as well. I hunt both from tree stands (both portable and fixed), and I still hunt and ground hunt. It somewhat depends on my mood that day, the season (generally hunt from a tree during bow season), the weather, and all that stuff. We're probably somewhat alike in that aspect - I too enjoy the concept of making my way through the woods or swamp with little enough noise to spook the deer.

[John Grossbohlin]

The issue was falls. They didn't address self-inflicted or other injuries from broadheads, knives, stub branches, firearms, etc.

They stated that there was a 100% probability that users would fall if they used home made stands over a long period of time, not that 100% of the people who use home made tree stands would fall. Thus long term use was part of the issue (some eventually go commercial and others eventually stay on the ground thus removing them from the population). They were also talking about the population of users rather than about the individuals--some would never fall and some would fall repeatedly. It's that latter group that I never understood. You'd think they'd try something different after a couple of falls... (someone comes to mind as a write this. ;~) ) ...like use a fall restraint.

I have noticed a marked improvement in the stands I've encountered in the woods in recent years. The home made stands are gone, the use of strap-on ladders has increased over the screw-in steps, and I don't see climbers any more. Clearly we are onto a new generation of stands and perhaps users--I didn't recognize ANY of the guys in the woods this year outside my long time hunting partner.

[J T]

Fri, Nov 30, 2007, 8:17am [e-mail] (John=A0Grossbohlin) doth posteth: They stated that there was a 100% probability that users would fall if they used home made stands over a long period of time,

I didn't recognize ANY of the guys in the woods this year outside my long time hunting partner.

Now that sounds about like something stupid that a politician would say. Sure, you keep one up long enough, doesn't matter if it's homemade or bought, chances are very good that eventually someone will fall. Just because some are 'homemade' doesn't mean zip - a LOT of homemade stuff is much higher quality, and better engineered, then something store bought - just depends on who made it. I know that if I wanted a deer stand, or whatever you want to call it, it'd be homemade, and welded up out of steel, with handrails on the ladder/steps, the whole nine yards. It'd be a lot better than anything most people could afford to buy, that's for sure.

I don't recall any mention anywhere about the percentage of falls from store bought stands. Of course, the survey was probably paid for by stand manufacturers. LOL It doesn't matter how many safety devices a store bought stand has if someone doesn't use them. Then they're just as unsafe as a homemade stand.

That's because all the other hunters fell out of homemade stands.

Gods above, if you've got to quote any of this, please learn to snip if you don't already know now. No need to re-read all this once again.

JOAT Even Popeye didn't eat his spinach until he had to.

[CW]

A "100% probability" is roughly equal to a "definite maybe". They're counting on the fact that many people are to stupid to realize that. Apparently, it works.

>>>

implication

[John Grossbohlin]

Kind of like the articles about drug company sponsored studies in the medical literature? Or pretty much any gun related article by Arthur Kellerman in the medical literature... Agenda driven sage craft!? ;~) Google will turn up RKBAs stuff I was involved with some years back.... it lives forever on the web! LOL

I don't recall all the details of the tree stand accident study but that item about the homemade stands stuck out... the stand shown in the photo referenced at the top of this thread had all the flaws that would lead to falls that were cited in the article, e.g., wooden surfaces that would be slick when wet or icy, no safety restraints in evidence, questionable structural integrity... gaps/cracks. I have no doubt that some people could do better than factory but they would be the exceptions and certainly haven't been in evidence in any of the many dozens of home made stands I've seen in the woods (most of which were nailed to live trees).

[J T]

Fri, Nov 30, 2007, 5:36pm [e-mail] (John=A0Grossbohlin) doth sayeth: I have no doubt that some people could do better than factory but they would be the exceptions and certainly haven't been in evidence in any of the many dozens of home made stands I've seen in the woods (most of which were nailed to live trees).

From what I've experienced you can slant survey questions to get about any results you want. I wasn't busy a few weeks ago so decided to respond to a telephone survey. Turned out it was a Hillary Clinton biased political survey. I stopped before I finished it, no matter how you answered the questions, it always wound up favoring her. I do not consider her morally qualified, or any other qualified, to even run for ANY political office, let alone for president, and so told the interviewer. 'Course noneof the others are much better than her, one tries to keep the worst ones at bay.

Just "some" people? You must not live anywhere around here. About anyone I know, that wanted to make a stand, could make one considerably better than most store bought stands. However, there is at least one individual I know that would screw it up anyway. .

JOAT Even Popeye didn't eat his spinach until he had to.

[slangerga]

That is outstanding! I used a similar design in a fixed mode and it is hassle to carry around. Great Job.

[Mike Marlow]

Well heck - of course you don't see climbers. Most of us take them in and back out with us most of the time. I'll cable mine and lock it to a tree on some properties where I have less of a chance of it being stolen, but generally I pack it in and back out. I believe (though I'm not sure...) that the popularity of climbers is higher today than it's ever been.

Screw in steps were never a favorite of mine. Always had a sweat worked up by the time I screwed in enough pegs to get up 20 feet, and still had to get the stand up and secured. Worse though were the strap on pegs. They were awful. I had a strap on break while I was up maybe 8-10 feet and I never stopped until I was on the ground. Never used another one after that.

The only non-climbers that I use now (with rare exception) are my own permanent stands. Otherwise, I use my climber. Way more comfortable, way easier to get up in.

[Mike Marlow]

Geeze John - my bullshit meter is almost pegged again. Where to start...

Wood surfaces *can* be slick, but are not always, even when wet. You looked at an idea drawing and concluded that something as simple as the very same non-slip adhesive strips common to commercial stands could/would not be on home made stands. Bad assumption. That said, my permanent stands have

30"x30" platforms of 5/4 PT. I don't have any non-slip stuff on them and I'll assure you that if you slip off of them it's because you're not fit to be in the woods. You'd have probably hurt yourself just getting out to the stand.

Safety restraints are not part of the stand. They are part of the hunter. So much for the value of this research article you reference. It's becoming clear what this article is really all about...

Questionable structural integrity???? Where does that come from? First - provide your credentials to make such a statement in the absence of any obvious problematic construction. Granted, you and I would probably be in agreement that the stand would have been better served with different spacing for the base boards, but even that is not a structural issue. This point is nothing more than unfounded conjecture and an attempt at FUD on your part John. Gaps we might agree on - but where did the "cracks" part of your comment come from?

If you find the idea of wood construction so objectionable, perhaps you should never own a home.

[John Grossbohlin]

You've wandered way off in the weeds here... it doesn't change what appears in the photo or the caveats on PABucks.com nor cited in the study. Those are the things I responded to initially, not the "I could, I would" items you have posted. The photo shows no non-slip strips, wide irregular spacing of slats, rusty chains, and judging by the odd shapes what appears to be scraps of PT used in the construction.

Regarding the study design and conclusions, my doctoral level research training suggests it was pretty reasonable for what it addressed and for the venue in which it was presented. It wasn't a structural engineering study with destructive testing or a longitudinal study of stand deterioration, rather it was a user-experience study of what is being used. It wasn't written for nor presented in a tier one academic journal, rather it was written and presented in what might be considered a tier one "popular literature" deer hunting publication.

The article may have succeeded in causing the "make their own" group to reconsider or to build better tree stands. If the latter became a wide spread trend a longitudinal study of tree stand falls might very well show that over time the risk of falls for the various types of stands may not be significantly different. However, as it is now, the study found that based on user experience the risk of falling from home made stands is much higher than "factory" stands and ladder stands were the safest. Which takes us back to where we started.

As long as you have health and life insurance, so as to not burden society if things go bad, I have no vested interest in what you personally use. Me, I'm perfectly willing to learn from other people's ills and avoid situations where the calculated risks point to a high probability of failure--especially when there are other options. I've seen enough people die and/or suffer injury and/or illness at their own hand to believe that there are cause and effect relationships. I'm not risk averse by a long shot (e.g., 3,142 mile solo bicycle/camping trip covering eight states in temperatures ranging from 18-95 degrees with conditions ranging from snow storms and freezing rain to searing sun). However, I've also come to appreciate that I'm not invincible nor infallible.

My slip on ice in the woods last winter was just the latest incident to remind me of how things can go suddenly wrong while afield. That slip caused me to fall a measured 130 feet down a measured average 30 degree slope--ignoring the vertical drop when I flew over a ledge--and loose a calculated 63 feet in elevation. I credit my Sorel Pac boots, Filson Tin Packer Coat and Insulated Tin Packer Hat with keeping me from being abraded by rocks, impaled on tree branches, knocked unconscious, etc. as I crashed into trees and rocks on my trip down the slope. At that it took me about 10 minutes to regain my senses and balance after the falling stopped... and then I had to walk about 2 miles back to the car. Final assessment showed that I suffered bruises seemingly every where and bruised my left elbow (the bone)... no internal bleeding or broken bones. The added risk of using a questionable tree stand isn't in the cards.

[J T]

Sun, Dec 2, 2007, 7:19pm [e-mail] (John=A0Grossbohlin) doth mumble: You've wandered way off in the weeds here... it doesn't change what appears in the photo or the caveats on PABucks.com nor cited in the study. Those are the things I responded to initially, not the "I could, I would" items you have posted. The photo shows no non-slip strips, wide irregular spacing of slats, rusty chains, and judging by the odd shapes what appears to be scraps of PT used in the construction. My slip on ice in the woods last winter was just the latest incident to remind me of how things can go suddenly wrong while afield. That slip caused me to fall a measured 130 feet down a measured average 30 degree slope--ignoring the vertical drop when I flew over a ledge--and loose a calculated 63 feet in elevation. I credit my Sorel Pac boots, Filson Tin Packer Coat and Insulated Tin Packer Hat with keeping me from being abraded by rocks, impaled on tree branches, knocked unconscious, etc. as I crashed into trees and rocks on my trip down the slope. At that it took me about 10 minutes to regain my senses and balance after the falling stopped... and then I had to walk about 2 miles back to the car. Final assessment showed that I suffered bruises seemingly every where and bruised my left elbow (the bone)... no internal bleeding or broken bones. The added risk of using a questionable tree stand isn't in the cards.

The things you responded to initially. I read this and got to thinking. So went back and read the plans link, then went back to your first response. I don't think you even read the plans link page. The guy does say it's at your own risk, etc. Rusty chains? Almost every chain I've seen has surface rust. And the guy says he used PT. He also recommends using chest and thigh straps. Gaps? It's not meant to be walking around on.

Sounds like the fancy name-brand (?) boots you credit with helping you survive injury helped you slip in the first place. I grew up in snow country and we always learned to be careful on ice. You musta pissed off one of the Gods just enough to want to shake you up, but not kill you. I can see now why you're so against homemade tree stands.

My personal thoughts are, you're just trying to yank everyone's chain.

JOAT Even Popeye didn't eat his spinach until he had to.