Slight OT: Redwood Fencing?

[Rima Neas]

Please excuse the OT, as fencing isn't exactly woodworking...

It is time to replace my redwood privacy fencing as it has fallen over. Around here (Nor Cal), they now use pressure treated (brown tone) DougFir for the posts, which is fine with me as it is slightly cheaper than ConHeart. But I am not at all happy about embedding wood directly in concrete. I keep thinking of concrete as basically a sponge that retains any moisture... and I prefer not to rebuild the dang fence again in this lifetime.

Is this really a problem and have others found a remedy for it? I was thinking of dipping the posts in something, perhaps fiberglass resin or even hot tar before placement. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Cheers, Shawn

[Lew Hodgett]

Depends on your budget.

The best, thus highest initial cost, would be to use Sonotubes, anchor bolts, end post brackets and bolts.

Use the tubes as a concrete form and pour the concrete about 12" above grade and the anchor bolts in place using the template provided.

Secure post bracket with anchor boots and bolt post to brackets.

All hardware should be galvanized.

Most expensive, but also most termite proof.

Have fun

Lew

[Tom Watson]

I'm with Lew on this and you wouldn't have to sink your sonotubes all the way into the hole. You can just stick them down enough to be able to have them give you a form for the above grade part. You'd still do a monolithic pour and, if you dig your holes cleanly and your ground is good, you won't have to worry about a crack line at grade.

If the hole is sloppy and you have to batter board the form, I'd put in a few #4 or #5 rebar.

For sure, I would not bury the posts in concrete. The posts will rot. We used to treat them with creosote but , if we stuck them in concrete, they still rotted.

Regards,

Tom Watson

[SonomaProducts.com]

If you dip the posts you are just creating a vessel hat will hold in any moisture that gets into the wood, helping it rot quicker (this is just my speculation).

Standard approach the fence guys I know (who care about their work) is to over dig the depth about 6 inches. Fill the extra six inches with gravel to create a French drain of sorts so the post will never be standing in water (at least not for long.) Then also over fill the concrete slightly so you can crown it an inch or two above grade so any water drains away and doesn't pool.

Alternative is some sort of Simps> Please excuse the OT, as fencing isn't exactly woodworking...

[Leon]

Sure it is. It certainly is not a Tupperware party.

Sounds like it is way past time.

Good Pressure treated should not rot for 20+ years. But if you have soft ground the fence will probably fall over but much sooner if you do not use concrete to anchor the posts. Been there and Done that.

Alternatively, use steel galvanized chain link terminal posts. Those can be masked with pickets or painted if you do not want to see the silver post and in addition to probably being easier to handle should be much less expensive. Be sure to concrete them in also. There are many types of brackets sold, commonly where you would buy the steel posts, that will let you attach the wood fence rails to the round steel posts.

Additionally if you attach a 1x6 PT board horizontally and level along the groung on the picket side of the posts you can use that board to set the pickets on. This will allow you to put the pickets up much faster and evenly, and it keeps the ends of the pickets off the ground which extends the life of the pickets. If the PT horizontal board rots it is much easier replaced than the whole fence.

Keep in mind also that PT pickets tend to warp badly over time, you want to run a minimum of 3 rails between each post to attach the "near" top, middle, and "near" bottoms of the pickets to.

[Leon]

It sounds like you are advising to have the posts above ground setting on piers. Seems that a slight wind would blow the whole thing over. I think for stability you are going to want the posts in the ground at least 20-24 inches.

[Leon]

Agreed!

Standard approach the fence guys I know (who care about their work) is to over dig the depth about 6 inches. Fill the extra six inches with gravel to create a French drain of sorts so the post will never be standing in water (at least not for long.) Then also over fill the concrete slightly so you can crown it an inch or two above grade so any water drains away and doesn't pool.

It is OK for the post to be standing in water when it rains, you don't want them standing in a naturally wet area when the weather is dry, they need to dry.

Alternative is some sort of Simpson post holder like a column base

One trick is to use some sort of standoff to hold the bottom of the post above ground. The Simpson items called a post base have this built in but they don't have enough attachment to the post, just a few nails. You don't really need sono tubes, just some careful placement of the embeds. I like to hang them in the hole from some temp structure and use a soupy mix of concrete so it pours in and levels easy.

The problem with most of these above ground anchors is that they are designed for something else to stabilize the other end of the post, like a deck or porch covering. For a fence post application I am afraid the fence might fall down with the first moderate gust of wind. IMHO the posts need to be in the ground a minimum of 20-24".

[Lew Hodgett]

Yep.

That becomes a function of the bracket which is designed to handle lateral loading from wind, snow, etc.

The Sonotubes should extend below the frost line which in most cases is probably around 24" minimum.

Lew

[Leon]

So these brackets would probably extend up the post a liberal amount? And the pivot point would be between the post bracket and the pier ? Got a suggestion on where to get those brackets? I'd love to see them, I have built lots'a fences and probably will continue to do so and this bould come in handy at times.

[Lew Hodgett]

Absolutely, probably at least 8"-10" and be thru bolted to the post with a couple of 3/8"-1/2" hex hd bolts and Esna Stop nuts (Aircraft type)

Haven't looked very hard, but if I was still back in Cleveland, I'd head for my buddy's machine shop with a sketch and a 12 pack in hand.

Maybe you got a guy like that in your area, especially with all the oil field shops in the area.

All you need is a machine shop with a shear and a press brake that could handle say 10Ga material and hopefully a punch press for the

9/16" clearance thru holes.

Shear some blanks say 3"x15", punch some 9/16" clearance holes then press brake to form a 90 degree angle ith 3"x12" legs.

Make say 100 pieces then head for the galvanizing shop and be patient.

With such a small load, you want to ride somebody elses coat tails and share the cost, thus avoiding minimum charges.

Have fun.

Lew

[Martin H. Eastburn]

Why not dig a hole, fill with concrete and put in a 4x4 bracket that ties into the concrete and gives a water drip away area and holds a 4x4.

These are used on Deck footings. A post can be replaced easily. The metal is thick and long lasting. Lots of capability at the Nor Cal lumber Yards - (I, a long time resident who moved home ).

Mart> Please excuse the OT, as fencing isn't exactly woodworking...

[Martin H. Eastburn]

These are used to hold DECKS from falling down. They are strong. Wind blows on decks and lots of moving weight surging across the top as 20 to 30 people move. My back deck was larger than this house.

I miss the house and neighborhood. But not the problems.

Mart>>

[HeyBub]

Another technique you might try is metal posts anchored in concrete. You can then attach the 4x4s to the metal posts with none of the wood touching the ground.

This arrangement is not only immeasurably stronger but almost immortal.

In my neighborhood, houses on each side of a power-line easement were fenced. On one side, every house had metal posts; on the other side every house had wooden posts. After Hurricane Yikes last November, about 60% of the wooden-post fences were down. None of the metal post fences were much bothered by the winds.

[Leon]

BUT decks have an upper structure to help prevent sway and typically do not have a large fence area to catch the wind.

[Tom Watson]

I couldn't find these on Google, so I sketched one up.

Dimensions are estimated from memory.

Regards,

Tom Watson

[Lee Michaels]

How hard would it be to manufacture something like this? It seems like a lot of folks who build fences would like something like this. I am certainly not going to manufacture this item, but somebody could. It seems to have a built in market. Just a thought.

[Tom Watson]

>>How hard would it be to manufacture something like this? It seems like a

I'll put a call into Billy Mays Here.

Regards,

Tom Watson

[Lew Hodgett]

Read my post to Leon.

Basically samo samo.

Lew

[Rima Neas]

How about a hybrid approach then... gravel the bottom of the hole as standard, but also paint the SIDES and only the sides of the post with resin so the wood does not directly contact the concrete. Moisture can still leave through the endgrain into the gravel/french drain.

The post-holder/post-base style of construction certainly has merit, but only if the metal holder can extend about 2ft up the post--no structure above, a huge wind load, and 50mph gusts every year. Of course metal posts would be nice too, but would cost $$. Besides, some of the fence will be shared with various neighbors and getting everyone to agree on a 'non-standard' look might be difficult.

Many thanks for the ideas so far. This is very helpful.

Cheers, Shawn

PS: Just as an aside, what lasts longer in ground-contact, redwood or PT (assuming GC level treatment)?

[SonomaProducts.com]

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