Shop Lighting opinions

Great idea!

I find the garage door opener outlet on the garage ceiling the most useful outlet in the building, it's always easy to reach, nothing is ever in the way, and it's a beefy circuit. I think I'm going to add another one.

Reply to
DGDevin
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Would that be pre-meditated revenge? It still stinks. Do you even bother to cross your fingers in negation as you sign the PO?

Come to think of it, I don't recall covering ethics in my public school education. As though that might make a whole lot of difference.

Reply to
MikeWhy

Rationalize it all you want, it's theft.

Your option is to not buy junk. But that involves being an informed consumer... which is what is happening in here... in this thread.

In any case, in my experience, Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot will all take back "a product that fails in an unreasonable period of time (but outside the store's return policy)."

We have the option of being honest about it, or run the risk of having a misdemeanor charge on our record. For most people, however, the misdemeanor never enters into the equation as a deterrent. For most, the simple fact is the price of their integrity much higher than $8.99.

Reply to
-MIKE-

And it makes problems for other people. I got a backup power supply once on which some asshole had done that with the battery. Also got a modem, didn't work, took it back to BestBuy, swapped it out, that one didn't work, talked to the store manager and ended up going through five of the things before we found one that worked. And at Harbor Fright, one time, I got a nail gun that was supposed to come with a package of nails--no nails--again went through most of the store's stock before we found one with nails. It amazes me that people will steal a damn little box of nails.

This is one example of the failure of ethics and enlightened self interest to adequately replace the fear of an all-knowing and vengeful God in moderating human behavior.

Reply to
J. Clarke

Part of the blame is shared by employees who don't listen or just don't care.

I took back a faulty item to Walmart and told the returns clerk that it didn't work. She put it in the cart behind the counter. As I walked back to the aisle to get another, I saw a stock guy bringing the same box I'd just returned to restock the shelf. I told him that I'd just returned it because it didn't work properly and he thanked me for telling him and said, "They [return desk] do that all the time."

That's one reason I never buy a box that's be opened and taped shut.

Reply to
-MIKE-

Yep. Trouble is that sometimes it's hard to tell.

Reply to
J. Clarke

Nails ???

Speak to somebody in the power tools departments of Lowes or Home Depot.

The customers steal on a regular basis:

The knobs that hold the air breather covers on compressors,power washers,etc.

The air cleaner covers.

The air filters from the above tools.

The tires from lawn mowers.

Any or all the knobs from back pack or hand held blowers.

Anything that can be removed and easily put in a pocket.

Imagine going to jail over a $2 air filter.

A friend who is a manager in a Lowes tells me stories that are beyond belief on theft.

J. Clarke wrote: It amazes me that people will

Reply to
Pat Barber

I also am in a basement shop with a low drop ceiling, About 7'6".

I have 4 twin tube, 4 ' flourescents hanging between the beams.

True to their nature the light is fairly sterile and evenly dull.

I solved it by looking at where I spent the majority of my tome and I installed and installed talk lighting in can type fixtures in the ceiling.

I initially used incandescent bulbs but have gone to the high white cf bulbs. They give the room a bit more "natural" lighting and don't generate that much heat.

Reply to
Jay Giuliani

If you recover money taken from you under false pretences, are you a thief?

What if you don't know it's junk? What if it's priced, packaged and promoted as quality goods but is actually junk *and both the mfg. and the seller know so*--what then? We bought an Onkyo home theater system some years back, when it began screwing up we went online and discovered other folks having the same problems, alas we all seemed to discover the situation at the same time. Onkyo's warranty depots were unable to fix the systems so they stalled until the warranties ran out, they went right on selling the same model. At that point it occured to us that the store which put the system on sale might have done so for a reason--bingo, as one of their staff confirmed they knew the system was a dud and they wanted to unload them.

No, we didn't steal something from the store in revenge, but needless to say we'll never buy another Onkyo product. However if there had been a way to return the system, say by smudging the date on the receipt, I'd sure have thought about it.

That assumes it is possible for the consumer to be informed, and that isn't always the case. The first batch of consumers to discover that a product is no good serve as a warning for those who come later, but those first folks still got ripped off.

I just went through this with a big electronics chain over some defective inkjet cartridges. They realized they'd been selling a poorly-made brand of cartridges so they dropped them because of many returns. But now they won't accept any more returns on the grounds that they no longer sell that brand. No, I didn't steal anything there either, but if I could have thought of a way to return the cartridges without them realizing what I was doing I might have done so and not lost any sleep over the "theft."

Very fine speech, when you decide to come down off that horse I think there's still some beer in the fridge.

BTW, I've only done something like this once. I bought a halogen lamp at HD, it seemed to work okay so after awhile I got rid of the box and the receipt, which caused the lamp to immediately die. HD wouldn't take it back without a receipt of course, so I bought another one, put the defective one in the new box and returned it with the new receipt (they gave me another lamp). HD lost nothing, they returned the lamp to the mfg. for credit just as they would have if I'd kept the first box and receipt. So now I have two lamps that work, both of which I paid for. If I stole anything I'd like to know just what that was. These days I keep receipts religiously *and* original packaging which drives my wife crazy, but it's allowed us to return some defective items that otherwise wouldn't have been accepted, live and learn.

Reply to
DGDevin

That's more rationalization. There are means in place to handle things like that. You never heard that two wrongs don't make a right.

Class actions suit. One of those legal means.

Then you would've decided your integrity was for sale for the price of a home theater system.

Covered above.

Then you would've decided your integrity was for sale for the price of some inkjet cartridges.

It's hardly a high horse, and you're embarrassing yourself by saying it is. In how deep a hole must one stand in order that seeing petty theft as wrong, looks like being on a high horse.

So have I. And it was just as wrong as when you did it or when anyone else does it.

It's too bad they wouldn't take it back. The HD's here will put it on a gift card if it's something they still sell.

But that's still more rationalizing. If it was after the amount of days stated in their return policy, it was wrong. If it was during the manufacturers warranty, you had another recourse. If you lose the receipt, it's your problem. But you said you learned that.

Reply to
-MIKE-

That depends how you do it. OJ, for example, went about it all wrong.

What if? The original premise was to buy it, use it, burn it out, and swap it for the same item.

It didn't read that way, Devin. I'm glad you cleared that up.

Reply to
MikeWhy

T8 fluorescents will probably be best. You don't say what type of conduit would be required. I would expect they would accept MC Cable which allows a lot of flexibility.

Mike M

Reply to
Mike M

Mike, have you ever started a class action suit? If not, give it a try and get back to us on how you do with it. You probably won't be quite so much the self-righteous prick after having that experience.

Reply to
J. Clarke

Only one of many legal and/or ethical recourses we have in civilized society.

Sorry you see the need to resort to name calling. Maybe you missed the part where I said I've done it before and it was wrong. That sort of rules out, by definition, being self-righteous.

Reply to
-MIKE-

Sure, try to attract landsharks interested in taking the case (unless you're prepared to foot the bill up front), wait for a few years until the company and the lawyers settle out of court, the lawyers get $7.5 million in fees, the claimants get to split a $3.2 million judgement 127,414 ways. My wife and I collected on such a case recently regarding a financial services company that misrepresented fees. In our experience nobody should plan on recovering their actual losses from such a settlement, what you get is what the lawyers agree to *after* their handsome fees are paid. I've earmarked some of the money for a plunge/fixed router kit.

In other words in a dispute between an unscrupulous company and victimized consumers and in which the deck is stacked in favor of the company, you're with the company.

In a situation in which a company pulls a Catch 22 to avoid having to honor their return policy it's interesting that your instinct is to side with the company.

I'm fascinated by how you unerringly see returning defective merchandise as "theft," as if a company that sets up hurdles, pitfalls and dodges to avoid having to accept returns is not part of the equation. In a previous century I was a retail manager for quite a few years, very successfully I might add. I saw just about every sleazy trick a customer can pull including trying to return items everyone knew they had broken through unreasonable abuse, trying to return things they'd purchased at other businesses, trying to return items from which parts had been removed, and so on. Happily I can say we never sold anything we knew was defective and then refused to accept returns because we'd dumped all our stock on unsuspecting customers and thus our usual return policy no longer counted. IMO that's fraud, and suggesting that anyone who doesn't like it should hire a lawyer is in effect saying tough luck, shop somewhere else next time. Hire a lawyer over eighty bucks worth of ink cartridges?

I bought a lamp that was defective, I returned a defective lamp, the company didn't lose a dime because the mfg. replaced it for them. Please point to the "wrong" for me.

It wasn't, it was just long enough for me to wonder why I was keeping the box for a forty-dollar lamp, as soon as the box and receipt were gone the lamp died. I even bought a new halogen bulb thinking that was the problem, but it was the lamp.

HD wants to keep you and me as customers, so they replace defective items (at least ones that fail almost out of the box) and they deal with the mfg., that's smart business. If HD had a big sign at the door reading If It Doesn't Work We Don't Care, Ship It Back to the Mfg., how many of us would shop there?

"Theft" requires loss, pray tell, what did HD lose when I returned the lamp? I bought two lamps, I exchanged one which they got credit for from the mfg., all I did was use the receipt from one lamp for another identical item. The mfg. suffered no loss they didn't agree to with HD, they replaced defective stock for a commercial customer who buys millions of bucks worth of lamps from them, HD's return policy and whether I lost one receipt but had another means nothing to the mfg.

You're going to some lengths to take the corporate side here. Return policies that make the consumer jump through hoops or which simply refuse to accept returns using loopholes are apparently okay with you for some reason. I agree that returning something purchased a year before and out of warranty as if it were new is over the line, I can't see myself doing that. But when a company knowingly sells something defective and then stonewalls on fixing it until the warranty expires, the company is in the wrong. Doesn't justify breaking into a store and stealing a new one, but if somebody can finesse a return in such circumstances despite the company's attempts to prevent it, I for one will hoist a cold one in their honor. You can have a good scowl over that if you like.

Reply to
DGDevin

That was delayed karma, those slow-grinding wheels finally caught up with him.

Yes, but that's not what I described doing, In one case I was knowingly sold junk which the seller and mfg. then declined to do anything about until the warranty was up at which point they figured they were in the clear. Burning out a product and then trying to scam a replacement is an entirely different matter. Mike figures the guys wearing out gear and taking it back as new are doing the same thing I did when I returned a virtually unused item that failed in weeks by buying a second and using that receipt, that strikes me as apples and oranges.

Reply to
DGDevin

So why is it the only one you have mentioned? Perhaps if you gave practical advice instead of telling people who are venting anger that they have "sold their integrity"?

Being a convert does not preclude one from being a self-righteous prick. In fact in any religion the most obnoxiously overzealous are generally the converts.

Reply to
J. Clarke

Nowhere in my writing have I taken the corporate side or defended a company for fraud. My only point in all of this is to say something that we have all heard from our grandmothers; two wrongs don't make a right. It is wrong to use fraud to combat fraud.

Reply to
-MIKE-

Methinks thou doth protest too much.

We can go back and forth with scenario after scenario. Like I told the other guy, two wrongs don't make a right. It's wrong to use fraud to combat fraud.

Reply to
-MIKE-

Protest what?

It's not the message, it's the stridency with which you deliver it and the total imcomprehension of the notion of vengeance vs cost as a motivation.

Reply to
J. Clarke

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