Powermatic or General ( finally !!! )

[pho]

[Ba r r y]

Can you cite statistics?

The resale on a General 350 or PM66 is pretty sweet, if you can actually find one for sale.

Barry

[AAvK]

still USA made, and any part of the 2005 model will fit

Brazil and seem to be trouble free...

Ain't as safe tho... where are Sawstops made?

[auto119042]

If your interested you can email: auto119042 @ hotmail dot com for the .pdf table saw shootout article in Wood magazine from 10/03.

[Dave W]

I also just went through the General vs everything else selection and turned to General (made in Canada). I had a Powermatic Artisan. It was such a piece of junk that Powermatic never seriously entered the equation. My uhderstanding is that all their saws are made in the far east. The General has met my expectations completely. It is a very serious machine that should long outlast me. Dave

[Brian Elfert]

PM66s are still made in the USA. Personally, I would get the General

350/650 if the price was the same. I like my General drill press except for the initial cost.

I only have a Unisaw, but it is plenty good for me. It is a refurb I got for a decent price.

Brian Elfert

[Slowhand]

Since no one else stepped in, I'd have to say if I had it all to do over again, I'd still buy a 1950ish unisaw. I've had the opportunity to try almost all newer table saws and I still haven't found any reason to upgrade (other than the newer ones being prettier). You can pick up older unisaurs for around $500-600 bucks. Save the rest of the dough for some other tool. Just my 2 cents. SH

[AAvK]

right tilt). Best resale vale too... The motors

Yeah I'd still say that safety factor is mighty strong argument tho...too good. Plenty of beloved saws are Chinese. It's what I'd have to do considering my nerve conditions. But that's just me.

[Bob G.]

On Sun, 22 May 2005 11:56:25 -0700, "Slowhand" again, I'd still buy a 1950ish unisaw. I've had the opportunity to try

Maybe you can pick up an older Unisaw for 5 to 600 bucks...but I can not even remember when I saw a used one for sale...PERIOD !

That said IF I found a used one I would buy it in a heart beat...Pretty rare around this neck of the woods to see any tablesaws (except Craftsman) for sale...

Bob Griffiths.

[Robert Bonomi]

One of the Pacific Rim countries. I _think_ it's Tiawan, but I wouldn't bet on it.

The downside to the Sawstop is the _cost_ of an activation. measured both in time and money, it is non-trivial. circa $80, as I recall, for the 'replacement' cartridge, *plus* whatever damage is done to the blade.

Which leads the issue of 'false positives' -- those cases where the thing triggers off for some reason _other_ than a human body-part in contact with the blade. This is an issue that *NOBODY*KNOWS* how likely it is to occur. It is impossible to predict what might happen in 'uncontrolled environments that could trigger the safety device.

The Sawstop cabinet saw _LOOKS_ to be well built, and is actually priced fairly competitively. Their contractor saw price, however, is on the high side.

How well it stands up to heavy use is, _at_this_time_, an "unknown question". When a 'significant' number of users have had them in 'day-in/day-out' use for 10-15 years or more, THEN there will be some 'hard data' available, as regards the construction 'quality'.

If _I_ were in the market for a *NEW* cabinet saw, I might actually consider the SawStop saw. I'd be a _lot_ more inclined to do so, if they gave an "insurance policy" against false triggerings -- that would replace the cartridge and the blade..

That said, I'm _not_ likely to ever buy a _new_ saw. I'd much rather buy a "well used" older saw. :)

[Robert Bonomi]

Check out the U.S. Dept. of Defense sales. The "Defense Property Disposal Office." You wouldn't *believe* what they have for sale on occasion. :)

[Upscale]

environments

Sorry Robert, but that's not a valid reason not to buy it. You're basing your argument on the lack of evidence as a reason not to consider buying it. That thinking is a basic fallacy of logical argument. It is understandable however, that you might be uneasy about it because it is a new product and not yet time tested.

[Duane Bozarth]

...

Which would undoubtedly be considerably extended in medical costs and likely in missed work time, irregardless whether the woodworking is professional or hobby....

...

Well, the rate could be pretty well predicted on the basis of extensive testing which I would presume they would have quite a bit of...I'm unaware of them having published any data from which to draw any conclusions on either side. I would suspect they will have a pretty good idea before they commit to production, however.

[AAvK]

That is all okay with me, the cost of the cylinder and all... I would use the saw carefully as possible and buy a new one every other month, build up an arsenal of them over time. That safety factor is too good for my nervous system. Not gonna buy the saw though.

[AAvK]

Although, I can imagine false triggerings occuring through wet wood... ay?

But if the system is warrenteed, guarenteed, has undergone years of devel- opment and perfected all along the way, shouldn't be a problem, but I would take more concern into all they have discovered in possibilities.

[Duane Bozarth]

My understanding is there's a bypass mechanism provided for such usage--of course, using it defeats the whole purpose of the saw, but apparently there are some instances where the technology just isn't suitable...

[Doug Miller]

Why would anyone be cutting wet wood on a table saw?

[Patriarch]

Bob G. wrote in news: [e-mail]:

It's Murphy's Law of Used Tool Acquisition. When I was looking for a used lathe, three really nice, very reasonably priced cabinet saws became available, over a period of two weeks, through the club email lists. (SF Bay Area)

When I gave up on the used lathe, and bought a new one, a 50+ year old 8" long bed Delta jointer, fully rebuilt, showed up on the list. The lathe lesson fresh in my mind, I bought the jointer, too.

One thing I'll say: My wife recognizes a new tool in the shop, all bright and shiny. A used tool is a stealth tool.

Patriarch

[Dave Hall]

Because you needed to make that rip cut on your Home Depot treated deck board to complete your deck installation?

Dave Hall

[Robert Bonomi]

"Total Cost of Ownership" is a _valid_ consideration in making a purchase determination. Ongoing 'operating' cost is an integral part of TCO. The likelihood of a 'significant' recurring expense is a part of estimating on-going costs.

If the thing 'false triggers' on a -weekly- basis, at a "cost" of half an hour of down-time, and $50-$200 in parts, It is 'too expensive' to maintain.

If the false triggers are 'less than once in 20 years', it is an entirely different matter.

The _lack_of_data_ on the subject means that there *is* a significant "uncertainty" as to the future operating costs of this device.

"Don't know" _means_ *don't*know*, and from a 'prudent business decision' standpoint, one must assume a fairly pessimistic probability for expenses that one does _not_ have data to make 'informed estimates' for -- failure to do so can, and *has* put firms out of business, when expenses turned out to be 'higher than estimated'.

In a 'personal-use' purchase, one doesn't have the 'business risk' consider- ations, granted. However, there is always the question of "'how much more' is this particular feature worth to me?" If you cannot make a reasonable estimate of the total costs (immediate _and_ future) you cannot make a reasoned decision in regard to "is it worth the cost".

How much 'uncertainty' one is willing to buy into _is_ a valid purchasing decision consideration.

*IF* -- and I want to stress that I am pulling numbers out of thin air here, strictly for purposes of discussion; I have *NO*IDEA* what the actual false-positive triggering rate is -- ,in "real-world" environments, the sawstop 'false triggers' 1000 times (at a cost of $100+) for every valid triggering, and that valid triggering prevents an injury that costs $25,000 including treatment *and* any loss-of-use, impairment, disability, etc. then society as a whole, _and_ the average user, is better off *not* spending the $100,000+ to save a perceived value of $25,000. If there are only 25 false positives per valid triggering, the economics of the situation are *entirely* different.

The point is, again, that we *don't*know*. Which means that any decision is being made on a basis of "faith" -- an _un-reasoned_ conclusion.

This, in and of itself, is not necessarily a bad thing. As long as you understand that that _is_ what you are doing, and you know _why_ you are doing it.

Deluding oneself that one is making a "rational, reasoned, decision", on the basis of something that can be only 'taken on faith' is exactly that. Delusions.