Power for the shop

[mws200]

Replacing the main breaker box at this time isn't an option, unless I want to skip getting a new saw, then there is no point to this little exercise! (well, except for having a new, possibly safer main breaker box)

At this point I'm really leaning towards putting a sub-panel in the shop. I want to relocate the wire running to the dryer out to the shop and use it as the feeder cable. The new sub panel would have a 50 amp breaker for a main disconnect, a 30 amp breaker feeding new wire run to the dryer, a 20 amp breaker feeding new wire to run the table saw, and possibly a few 110v circuits for various outlets throughout the shop. Any major problems with this plan? I've looked at the cable that currently feeds the dryer, it is about 3/4" thick, round, grey and not labeled - how best to identify it for sure? Would this plan require any changes inside the main breaker box?

Just as a disclaimer, I would have everything checked out with an electrician and so on, at this point I'm just trying to determine if this plan is feasible so I have a rough idea of the cost.

[Ed Pawlowski]

The code is written as a safety guide and tries to consider every possible bad scenario. It is still possible to do certain things safely, but not according to the code.

I'm in favor of building permits and plans that meet codes, but some are kind of silly. A friend built a log cabin style house. He has a loft. If he calls it a bedroom, it is not allowed as it is and changes must be made. As long as he called it a seating area loft, it was OK'd and CO was issued.

Should a permit be issued and a licensed electrician install a receptacle and have in inspected? Sure, every town will need to hire a dozen more inspectors. There are a lot of idiots out there. Some years ago I saw a basement of a fairly new home being finished. The owner was going to add some receptacles and was using lamp cord to daisy chain four of them. I pointed it out to the wife and she was going to have it changed. The people that need inspection the most are not going to get it.

[Sonny]

The house next door is my "new" (second) shop. I wanted to discontinued the power from the city source and service the new shop from my home, via subpanel. I contacted an electrician and described my plans and asked if he would do the specialty work.

I did all the rough labor and had all other items, needed for job completion, ready for the electrician. The electrician did all the connections, after he inspected my labor work. Some of his work included disconnecting breakers for a few lines of specific use & tools from the garage & old shop and have those transferred to the new shop service, The material supplies were maybe $400 to $500 and the electrician charged me $45. It took him about an hour, we had a nice chat, and I feel safe and secure with the outcome. I'm certain his family enjoyed the several jars of home-made blackberry jelly and fig jam I gave him, also.

Sonny

[Morris Dovey]

Anything else you need done? :)

[Jim Weisgram]

[...snip...]

I think it is a good plan, except you might consider getting a subpanel with more expansion room, so that you don't have to go back in a few years and increase the size of the subpanel.

In my case I had an electrician replace my old fuse box with a modern

200 amp panel about 15 years back. In my ignorance, I didn't specify that we should spend a few extra dollars for a panel with plenty of expansion room.

Since the house is older, I have added a lot of new circuits over the years, often to reduce the load on the old wiring or to add outside lights, dedicated circuits for things like the refrigerator, washer, microwave, etc.

Anyway, I quickly maxed out the panel. When I ripped down my old garage/utility room and replaced it with a shop worthy space, I got the biggest Siemens type panel I could (Siemens breakers are widely available and relatively inexpensive), took that old panel and put it in the garage as a subpanel. It is nearly full now.

You could open up the outlet box the dryer plugs into and check out the wires themselves.

[Lew Hodgett]

Lowest cost solution is to install a 125 MLO(Main lug only) 12/24 (12-1" or 24-1/2") panel with a 2P-60A main CB kit, a 2P-50A branch breaker for the dryer and a 2P-30A breaker for the T/S.

Feed the new sub panel from the existing 2P-50A branch breaker(existing dryer circuit) and move the dryer wiring to the sub panel.

Buy what ever brand of equipment that is popular in your area.

A 12/24 panel will provide all the shop capacity you will need for a typical home shop including an additional 2P-50A for a 5HP air compressor if you need one.

The above based on many years in the electrical business designing electrical distribution systems and selling the above equipment.

YMMV.

Lew

[Mike]

I spent some time looking at the existing dryer line - the dryer plug is a 3 prong plug, which has 2 hot wires, and one ground - but does not have a neutral wire. So it doesn't look like I'd be able to use this line to feed my new sub-panel. An electrician I spoke with at work told me that this setup is common for large appliances such as dryers - 2 hot wires, 1 ground and no common.

Now it looks like I will have to pull new wire from the main breaker box out to the shop - this new line would have 2 hot wires, 1 common and 1 ground. Does that sound correct? If so, then I would want to disconnect the existing dryer line from the 50 amp breaker in the main panel and connect the new line to that breaker.

[Lew Hodgett]

is a 3 prong plug, which has 2 hot wires, and one ground - but does not have a neutral wire.

NBD.

The existing main panel will have L1, L2, N & Gnd.

Pull the N & G from the existing pnl.

Pull L1 & L2 from the existing 2P-50 presently used to feed dryer.

You now feed dryer from new sub pnl.

N & G will also come from sub pnl..

Not sure about your area, but usually when you work on something, you have to bring it up to current code.

Probably means you will need to replace existing dryer receptacle with a 4 wire unit and replace the dryer plug to match.

Sounds like the dryer is old enough it may not require any 120V service.

Lew

So it doesn't look like I'd be able to use this line to feed my new sub-panel. An electrician I spoke with at work told me that this setup is common for large appliances such as dryers - 2 hot wires, 1 ground and no common.

Now it looks like I will have to pull new wire from the main breaker box out to the shop - this new line would have 2 hot wires, 1 common and 1 ground. Does that sound correct? If so, then I would want to disconnect the existing dryer line from the 50 amp breaker in the main panel and connect the new line to that breaker.

[Douglas Johnson]

This myth persists. I've been over my Texas Homeowners policy and can find nothing in it that would let the insurance company deny such a claim, except a finding that I modified the wiring to deliberately burn the house down. Stupid doesn't count.

I've talked to two claims adjusters on the subject. Neither one hesitated before saying "They'd pay".

If someone has better information, I'd love to hear it.

-- Doug

[MikeWhy]

I will say this. First, thanks; I learned something. Second... I can't help but point at AIG and say, yeah, against all logic and morals, I would take the bailout, too, to mend something I did of my own stupidity/hubris/ignorance/imprudence/clumsiness.

[Leon]

Take heart that the comparison is not really a fair one. Most home owners doing their own wiring are not knowing throwing caution to the wind.

Now if you knew that what you were doing was going to cause problems, that would be a different matter.

[krw]

Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician. The electrical inspector I had when I built my garage told me that homeowners did a much better job than the average electrician, primarily because it is theirs, they have more time, and tend to overbuild to compensate for any lack of knowledge.

Right, it would have to be intentional (i.e. arson) for a claim to be denied.

[Joe Brophy]

There are 1/2 width breakers available for most breaker types that allow 2 breakers to reside in the place of one standard breaker. You might be able to get some breaker space by using the 1/2 size ones in enough breaker positions in your box to "free up" breaker slots for your additional circuit breakers.

[Sonny]

After having explained what I was doing, with the house next door, the electrician gave me some tips and advice before he came out. Once he was here, he inspected what I had done, recommended leaving some things "live" in the garage and old shop, explained several aspects of code, etc. in relation to what I did and in assisting me with subequent wiring-related work to be done, later, in the rest of the shop. He was as dedicated to my concerns as I was.... going the extra step in doing a good job with me in mind. That warrants a gratuity. And, surely, he had to have been a professional, since he wore an impressive-looking tool belt!

The house had partially burned, so I was able to purchase it cheap. I've been remodeling it, since then, as a shop. I need help with heavy lifting, sometimes. I'm doing a little interior work, at the moment, and will be doing more exterior work, soon, as the weather is warming up, nicely. I always give a token of appreciation to those who give an extra hand in assistance.

On another note, I've discovered the property, as a residence, itself, has a higher tax assessed to it than if I would have the property enjoined to my home property, creating one larger single residence. I've learned this is not hard to get done, in my particular circumstance, and a one-time fee of about $800, for surveying and legal filing, would result in an overall tax assessment/bill of about $500 per year less than I am presently paying. And one doesn't have to be an electrician, impressive tool belt or not, to figure that one out.

Sonny

[Morris Dovey]

:) It was a rhetorical question - and I like how you show appreciation.

Sounds like a "keeper". Hmm - I wonder if a good tool belt would do anything for my (lack of) plumbing and electrical skills... probably not.