OT: Blacktop vs Concrete

========================= Important question....

I had my Asphalt driveway installed in 1970 and it is now cracking bad enough to have me thinking about having it fixed.."capped" , dug up and replaced, or just forgetting about it.... and letting it revert to gravel in another 5 years....

Never coated this drive to make it look pretty but weekly visits from the BIG & Heavy Schwann Ice Cream truck and lots of visits from the BIG & Heavy Propane truck have over the years left their mark...

Concrete should last much longer then 20 years....I got 30 good years out of my Asphalt drive ... Not Complaining... I like Ice Cream and I kind of like to work in a warm shop...

Bob Griffiths

Reply to
Bob G.
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It'd be a *WRONG* attribution, though. :)

In virtually any climate, *properly*installed* portland cement concrete will 'significantly' outlast properly installed 'blacktop' (technically "asphaltic concrete", BTW).

Portland cement *IS* significantly more expensive than asphalt. The 'materials cost' difference is much less than it used to be (general run-up of 'petroleum' prices); but portland cement still requires: (a) much more time and care in preparing the material, (b) more complex transport, (c) more, and more skilled, labor in installation/finishing. All of which translate directly into higher costs. There's also the issue of the delay between installation and '_fully_ ready to use' -- weeks for concrete, vs hours (at most), for asphalt.

The "lifetime" of portland cement is more dependent on 'proper installation'. You can 'cut corners' further on an asphalt install, than you can on portland cement, and still get something that is usable "for a few years". You have try _really_ hard to get an asphalt install that won't be usable for

2-3 years. But "any idiot" can botch a portland cement job such that it barely survives the first year.

The single _biggest_ factor that works against asphalt is *heat*. In cooler climates, heat-related 'problems' do not manifest themselves to anywhere near the degree that bedevils asphalt in warmer climes.

Thus, the "inferior" product may be "good enough" for that environment, especially when one takes into consideration the *cost* difference between "good enough", and 'doing it right'.

It's not that asphalt is 'better' than portland cement in a colder climate (it is =not=) but that portland cement is not perceived to be "enough better" to justify the higher cost. If your 'planning horizon' is say, 15020 years, does the fact that a portland cement install will last for 100+ years, vs. asphalt at a life of maybe 20-25 years, *really* make any difference? Either one will last "longer than you care to think about." -- when whichever one you used fails, it will be "somebody else's" problem. :)

Answering "which is best?" is easy.

Answering "which is 'good enough' for my needs?" is an entirely different issue. And depends on a *lot* of things -- climate, geology and soil conditions, topography, anticipated loading, frequency of use, required 'useful life', and a whole bunch more.

Reply to
Robert Bonomi

Why? Can you offer another reason almost nobody in Clinton County, NY (Bordering VT and Canada) uses concrete?

Much snippage.

Bob, I did not intend to imply that concrete was not longer lasting. I'm sure that it is. What I did mean was that without factoring in climate, you could not make *specific* age predictions about either asphalt or concrete.

Without specific (regional) age predictions, how can you asess whether the upgrade to concrete is cost-effective in the long run?

-Steve

Reply to
Stephen M

Not me. I've only got plans for the next 10,000 years. I like to fly by the seat of my pants. :-P

Reply to
Jerry S.

"George Gibeau" Said We are looking into getting our driveway paved. snip

Concrete. All other options are cost or apperance.

Dave

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Reply to
Teamcasa
[[.. some snipped original material restored, to provide context ..]] In article , Stephen M wrote: || Robert Bonomi wrote: || In article , || Stephen M wrote: || >Thankyou... the voice of sanity. I'm no expert but as resident of the 45th || >parallel, climate makes all the difference in expected lifespan of either || >type of driveway. I can't think of a single home in my community with a || >concrete driveway. I *have to* attibute that to the harsh climate.

Sure!

Because they're *CHEAP* SOBs, with a (comparatively) short-term view.

Note: A "cool" climate is actually _easier_ on asphalt than a "hot" one.

Repeating from previous posting: The single _biggest_ factor that works against asphalt is *heat*. In cooler climates, heat-related 'problems' do not manifest themselves to anywhere near the degree that bedevils asphalt in warmer climes.

Thus, the "inferior" product may be "good enough" for that environment, especially when one takes into consideration the *cost* difference between "good enough", and 'doing it right'.

Portland cement doesn't "give a damn" about temperatures, high or low.

What can do damage is 'freeze-thaw" cycles, where moisture gets into cracks and expands as the water freezes.

This will break up *either* portland cement, or asphalt. If not properly installed/supported, portland cement is somewhat more vulnerable to this, because it is comparatively brittle (whereas asphalt is somewhat flexible), which facilitates development of cracks.

For "specific" aging predictions -- as in "concrete will last X years, while asphalt will only last Y years" -- I won't argue.

Properly installed concrete, for practical purposes, *does*not* wear out simply due to the passage of time. The size of the loads applied, the frequency of the loading, and 'scuffing' from friction turn out to be the major "life expectancy limiting" factors.

Asphalt, on the other hand _does_ "age". It doesn't have structural integrity enough to support its own weight. The 'binder' that holds the rocks together

*is* volatile (it is a hydrocarbon compound) -- not _very_ volatile, but nonetheless volatile -- and does evaporate/leach out over time. Regular "preventive maintenance" can slow the process, but not prevent it. As the binder "looses its grip" the asphalt just crumbles and falls apart.

Repeating from prior post: Answering "which is best?" is easy.

Answering "which is 'good enough' for my needs?" is an entirely different issue. And depends on a *lot* of things -- climate, geology and soil conditions, topography, anticipated loading, frequency of use, required 'useful life', and a whole bunch more.

Without defining _what_ is the "long run", how can you possibly begin to make an assessment? Hint: this *is* why the DOD used concrete, where the locals were using asphalt. They *do* expect to be there for the "long run" -- their "planning horizon" *IS* much longer than the local homeowners. Nationally, the 'average' length of ownership of residential real-estate is _thirteen_ years. Anything you do with a 'life expectancy' longer than the time you're likely to remain in the property is, effectively, for the benefit of the _future_ owners.

Reply to
Robert Bonomi

Robbert Bonomi notes:

an assessment? Hint: this *is* why the DOD used concrete, where the locals were using asphalt. They *do* expect to be there for the "long run" -- their "planning horizon" *IS* much longer than the local homeowners. Nationally, the 'average' length of ownership of residential real-estate is _thirteen_ years. Anything you do with a 'life expectancy' longer than the time you're likely to remain in the property is, effectively, for the benefit of the _future_ owners.

Reply to
Charlie Self

Indefinitely actually. I moved to Houston in 1974 and was amazed that 90% of all streets and freeways are made from concrete. They are still here with 500,000 cars going over one portion of a concrete freeway daily.

Reply to
Leon

Unless you live in an area where you need to use ice-melt on it. All the sidewalks around our church are spalling badly thanks to the action of the ice-melt, but I don't really see any good option to remove the ice before all the little old ladies get there on Sunday morning. I'm certainly not going to stand out there and try to chip it off of 5-6 hundred feet of 4' sidewalk before church!

Under the conditions here, with the use of ice-melt, I would say that concrete will last anywhere from 10-50 years. Asphalt may actually last longer if you have to use a lot of ice-melt. This summer I'm going to look into some sort of sealer that will hopefully keep the concrete in better condition.

-- "We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

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Reply to
Tim Douglass

Sorry if I misled you all here. I was talking about exposed aggregate in Southern In. If you don't coat it with CURE-N-SEAL or equivalent.......you will walk out one morning and have a gravel drive.;-). They load the roads down with salt for the two or three big snows we get and it all falls off the vehicle onto the drive. Forget about washing said vehicle cuz I am on call 24 hours and it will get dirty again in a few hours. I like some of the rest did not know the whereabouts of the OP. Cheers, Wish him/her the best of luck Lyndell

Reply to
Lyndell Thompson

Thanks for all the great comments to my original post. A few more tidbits;

Location - Southwest Missouri

Driveway is relatively flat - no hill, very, very small incline.

Thanks again,

George

Reply to
George Gibeau

If the Schwan's truck visited me every week I'd be worrying about the BIG and heavy *me*!

-- "We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

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Reply to
Tim Douglass

Thanks for the reminder that my egocentricity got the best of me in my reply as well. They don't use salt in my part of Oregon - mainly because we don't get much if any snow - gravel as traction device but no salt. I can certainly see the shortened longevity to concrete when salt is used regularly.

Reply to
Fly-by-Night CC

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