Marking dovetails - visibility

[Nate Perkins]

Hi,

I'd like to inquire how you folks out there mark your dovetails. I've been spending a lot of time trying to handcut dovetails that fit tightly and consistently. I'm making progress, but I've still got a ways to go.

I'm having real problems trying to make a precise line that is also visible. I do pins first, and mark the tails from the pins. The problem comes in marking the tails from the pins. I use a marking knife (Veritas), and the lines are very faint and darned hard to see on the face grain.

Any suggestions on how you folks mark this joint, and how you improve the visibility of scribed lines would be appreciated.

Thanks, Nate

p.s. I have also tried using a pencil, but it seems that the lines aren't really sharp and I'm not exactly sure if I'm hitting the right line when I saw.

[TeamCasa]

Nate, You are on the right track. Mark with a knife then remark the line lightly with a pencil. The razor edge will be seen easily.

Dave

[Frank McVey]

Hi, Nate.

If it's a dark wood, try lightly rubbing chalk or talc into the cut lines, otherwise use a hard pencil to give you a fine line.

Cheers

Frank

[Bob S.]

Nate,

If money is not the issue - get it and enjoy. Collecting and using the toy's is part of the hobby too...

Now if you need to justify it to someone other than yourself - that's a whole 'nuther story and trust me, we can help you justify the hell out it if needed...;)

Bob S.

[Nate Perkins]

Okay, I'll try that. The cut line is so faint that it's darned hard to find it for highlighting.

I was thinking that maybe my knife is too sharp, and that a scratch awl might be better. The Veritas knife is pretty wide and there's not a lot of room for it to fit between the pins.

Thanks for the suggestion.

[Lowell Holmes]

I use a drafting pencil (H or 2H) sharpened to a beveled point and mark with that. I cut the tails first, since I find it is easier to mark the pins from the tails. I clamp the pin piece to a vertical edge on my workbench and hold the tails securely over the pin piece while I mark the pins. If necessary, I will reinforce the line weight prior to sawing the tails or pins. I use strong cross lighting to make sure I can see the lines.

Let's don't get into the tails first - pins first argument. :-) Your not going to change how you do it and I'm sure not going to change. My mind is closed on the subject.

[Bridger]

if the wood is light colored, make your mark with the knife, then follow the scribe with a pencil. rub the pencil off of the surface, and you will have a dark knife mark. if the wood is dark colored, use white chalk to highlight your scribe. Bridger

[dave]

I think you'll like the cut then mark method. It gives you two lines and if you pay attention you can cut one of them away, which hwlps remind you what is waste. Dave in Fairfax

[Andy Dingley]

Try using an awl. A knife is OK for marking pins from tails, but it's hard to get into the corner for tails from pins.

[Silvan]

White colored pencil...

I saw on the safe side and sneak up on the lines with chisels. It takes a lot longer, but it's safer.

[KYHighlander]

your supposed to do tails first from everything that I have read. Try that might help. Am almost ready to start the dovetail journey myself.

[Nate Perkins]

Hi,

Thanks to you and all the others for the suggestions.

I think one reason why it's a bit tricky is that I'm doing this project in mahogany (African, the cheap variety). The grain structure on the face makes the mark especially hard to see.

In the past I've made some other pieces out of walnut or cherry, and the lines did seem to be a little more visible in those woods.

I'll try the pencil and the chalk method. I've been trying the crosslighting (with a little portable 100W lamp), and it sure does help.

To tell you the truth, it's only recently that I saw well enough that the precision of the line is the limiter :-P I'm sure I've made

50-100 dovetails (among scrap and small projects), and I'm still learning the little things I'm doing wrong.

Cheers, Nate

[Australopithecus scobis]

I try that, but my dozuki sees the knife line more clearly than I do, and says, "Yum." How far to the safe side do you start?

[Conan the Librarian]

I used to do it that way, but it took forever and I was never happy with the results. Finally, I just heeded the words of Klausz (or was it Kirby?) who said that you should always aim for a good fit from the saw. The more you pare and fit, the more chances there are for mistakes. And if you can't see the line well enough to saw, I wouldn't be too confident in your chances with a chisel either.

If you think about it, which tool is more likely to give you a straight line, a saw or a chisel?

Anyhow, the way I do it now is to scribe my pins from the tails by clamping the boards in place with Pony miter clamps and using my marking knife. I then extend the lines down the board faces with a pencil (drawing the line just on the waste side of the mark, so that I aim to remove the pencil mark when sawing).

If the wood is dark, I use a white pencil with soft lead and rub it across the endgrain mark. Then I wipe off the surface, and that leaves a bit of color in the scribed line. Again, I mark the board faces with pencil, and I don't have to worry about it being a tiny line (as long as I get it started just to the waste side of the scribed mark), because I am not splitting the line, but removing it with my saw.

FWIW, ever since I started aiming for a fit from the saw, my dovetails have been *much* better than when I purposely cut shy of the line and pared.

Chuck Vance

[Jim Wilson]

"le mieux est souvent l'ennemi du bien", which roughly means that the effort to make things better often leads to the deterioration of what was already good enough.

Jim

[Frank McVey]

For sure, Chuck. At one time it was a point of honour among craftsmen to have your dovetails fit straight from the saw, and it's not *that* hard. And, like you, I mark the pins from the tails. I know it's a controversial point, and that vice-versa will work just as well if you're doing a one-off, but if you're doing a run of 3-4 drawers, then, to me at least, it's a lot faster to gang all the sides together with clamps and saw all the tails as one. Then you split the gang and mark up the pins on to the fronts/backs individually for the best fit..

Cheers

Frank

[Conan the Librarian]

I *aim* to have them fit straight from the saw, but ... er ... let's just say that sometimes my aim is a bit off. :-) Still, by trying to split the line on the waste side, I might get half of them to fit without paring (if I'm "in practice").

You know I always seem to think of that *after* I've already started sawing the tail boards individually. :-) Thanks for the reminder.

Chuck Vance

[Larry C in Auburn, WA]

I'm always interested in buying stuff, but did I miss something here? I reread Nate's post twice and I don't see any mention of buying anything. What am I missing?

[Silvan]

In *my* hands? Definitely a chisel. :) My saw cuts never come out quite right, and they're always too something. Too shallow, too deep, too steep, too crooked, too rough. Especially too rough. My saw leaves a really ugly surface behind that I *have* to clean up.

I've gotten better results by far using an Xacto razor saw, but it's slow, slow going, and the thing doesn't cut deep enough. I suppose I need to get some fancy, expensive, thin kerf, lotsa tooth dovetail saw before I can use them on a real project.

Yours might be advice to heed though. I've never felt able to turn out consistent enough dovetails to actually use them in a project involving wood that cost me money. I can get a few good ones, but never all good ones.

[Ken Muldrew]

Get a saw like the "Classic Gent's Saw" sold by Lee Valley ($25 CDN) and make a proper handle for it. Go to the following url

you'll find a template for the handle near the bottom of the page. It only takes a couple of hours and a scrap of wood.

Practice cutting right to the line (once you have a decent saw) and use thin, reasonably hard wood until you get the hang of it (dovetails in 1/2" stock are much easier than dovetails in 13/16" stock).

Ken Muldrew [e-mail] (remove all letters after y in the alphabet)