I hate dovetails

[mark]

Do dovetail saws have zero set teeth?

[Ba r r y]

Mario Rodriguez teaches dovetail classes here in CT where part of the class involves tuning a $20 saw to work properly for dovetailing.

Barry

[Andy Dingley]

Well, you can probably cut dovetails with any old piece of junk, so long as you've re-sharpened it right.

The question is do you want a saw with a lot of set (easily steered, doesn't cut straight) or a little set (goes where you point it, but you'd better be right straight off). I started out with a Japanese full-backed dozuki. These are excellent and accurate saws and everyone should at least try one. Although they're nominally crosscuts, they rip pretty well. Recently thought I've acquired an old Preston dovetail saw, which is a rip-sharpened traditional English back saw, a lot like the contemporary L-N dovetail saw. I may well switch over.

You don't need a $200 wonder-saw (although I'm sure they're good), because you can build an equivalent for a lot less. But you do need the _right_ saw. My dovetail saw is set up for cutting dovetails, and that's all it gets used for.

I think you could try any old small fine-toothed tenon saw, re-cut and re-sharpen it as a rip saw, then adjust the set so that it saws straight. You'll need a sharpening vice (home built from a couple of bits of scrap wood), a new saw file and a saw set (get the old CK for fine saws, not the Eclipse). There are plenty of web resources on re-cutting and re-sharpening saws. So long as it's a well made and _old_ saw, not a modern induction hardened saw, you can build your own for much less than a L-N.

[Prometheus]

I've got one of the Craftsman ones as well, but I have the opposite of the problem that many of the woodworkers on this group have- I've gotten very used to Japanese pull saws, so it's tough for me to saw with the Craftsman. I've got a nice dozuki saw on my christmas list as a result!

[mp]

40 grit in a 12 amp belt sander will get rid scribe lines in short order.

[Charlie Self]

Barry notes:

Also, his article on tuning such a saw is available for a few bucks from FWW on-line.

Charlie Self "When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." Thomas Paine

[SawDust]

Hi Owen,

See your in the neighborhood...

I'm not a believer that it take's an expensive tool to do an acceptable job. Find a saw you "like" to use and then learn to use it and that means "Patience".

I cut my first dovetail with a $12 Bucky Brothers back saw purchased at Home Depot. Recently I bought a stanley mitre box and saw for $29. Both saw's work quite well.

I'd like to try out a japanese saw, but I haven't had the opportunity.

Next thing you need is a nice sharp set of chisels.

Just a suggestion and I'll probably be attending in the near future. Lee Valley "417 to Pinecrest/Greenbank, then one block south to Morrison drive" they run day courses for hand cut dovetails and a number of other wood related seminars. There is a small fee, but they feed you a lite sandwich lunch too. Check out their website for course details.

Obviously they will be pushing their Veritas Dovetail guides and matching Japanese style dovetail saw. Eitherway, the technique is still the same.

Pat

[Kentucky Highlander]

I just bought an Incra jig ultra, haven't tried it yet but looks very promising. Reasonably price compared to the high end dovetail jigs.

[Nova]

"patriarch

[loutent]

I dunno - I bought that video about 5 years ago. It's great. Looked at it over and over and over - still trying to figure out the "monkey" analogy. Dense I guess.

It's not totally neander - uses a TS to cut & dado the sides. Something to aspire to tho. I'm always lookin' back at it!

Got a PC dovetail jig - works ok, but it is a PITA to set up and get exactly right (like equal tails on top/bottom/left/right).

I always wanted to get a dedicated router/bit/collar/jig combo to eliminate some variables - leaving only stock thickness to worry about. Since I only do a few drawers a year, I haven't done that.

I keep thinking that I should just get a simple "drawer" lock bit - after all - who would ever know or care?

We all know the answer to that don't we?

Lou

[DamnYankee]

Agreed! Incidentally, one of Thomas Jefferson's slaves was Jefferson's cabinetmaker; and the bookcases which were built depicted not only the dovetails but the scribe marks as well...absolutely beautiful in my opinion - but that's my preference.

Naturally that would have been taboo in the upcoming Victorian age...which in my opinion, was the most beautiful, intricate, and incredible wood butchering occurred. Some of the pieces of furniture made in that time was beyond impressive.

Peace!

DY

[Owen Lawrence]

You know what? That's an EXcellent suggestion! I drive by Lee Valley a couple of times a week--it's hard to keep going past, but I'm going to where I get the money that I'll eventually leave at Lee Valley. (The dovetail guides are stylish and won't drain my bank account; I've had my eye on them for awhile anyway. But I don't "need" them so I haven't bought them.)

From what Mr. Dingley said, it sounds like if your saw meets the minimum standard of fine teeth (how fine?) and stiffness, you can turn it into a dovetail saw. I've never changed the set of teeth before, so we're introducing another educational variable here. I might be better off either being shown exactly what to do (i.e. in a course), or buying the "right saw", because I know I'll just get frustrated if I unknowingly screw up the first step and then have trouble with the second.

- Owen -

[Nate Perkins]

No, a Western dovetail saw has very little set to the teeth, but it's not zero. With too little set it would bind like crazy.

[Nate Perkins]

As usual Andy, I think your comments here are right on the mark.

I have three saws, all purchased off of Ebay and resharpened and set myself (using the directions on the website of Pete Taran). My favorite by far is a Groves and Sons brass-backed dovetail saw (about

8" long), with an open handle. I also have a Disston #4 (a bit too large for my liking), and an Atkins backsaw that's a closed-handle saw approx intermediate in size between the Groves and the Disston. I think I paid about $40 for the Groves, and around $25-30 for each of the Disston and the Atkins.

I also have tried the dozuki method ... but I'm afraid I learned on the Western style and now it seems much more natural. The dozuki works fine, it just "feels" wrong to me.

Right on. I even have a cheapie Two Cherries gents saw that works pretty well. As purchased, it had way too much set and it wasn't sharp enough. I pressed out most of the set using a vise and resharpened it, and it's now a passable saw.

[patriarch]

Nova wrote in news: [e-mail]:

[patriarch]

loutent wrote in news:231020042037592850% [e-mail]:

My neighbor has a simple "drawer lock bit", purchased based on the demos and articles. Took Forever and a half to make two simple matching drawers with that thing. And it's not like he's short on gear, either. I think he's got one of everything that Incra sells...

The problem is, as someone mentioned earlier, that production methods mean setup times and testing and consistency that the hobby shop user isn't likely to view as an effective use of their time and materials. We're just not doing 300 drawers before the morning break, or working with the setup guides cut to 1/128" accuracy.

All the more reason to design for 'tweakability' in the product we're building.

Patriarch

[Andy Dingley]

They often do, but they shouldn't!

Lots of people approach dovetails as "the most awkward thing to cut", so they immediately look for the "most accurate" saw they can find. Sadly this is often the _smallest_ saw, rather than the most appropriate. Lots of people are out there trying to saw dovetails with a gent's backsaw - often with a turned "stick" handle. These have tiny teeth, thin blades and no set.

If you're sawing, you need to let the chips out somewhere. Sawn timber expands when you cut it free - noticeably more with softer carcasing timber than for some hard materials, like ivory or the hardest of turning woods (these are what most gent's saws were intended for). A wide kerf helps here, but there are limits to what you can allow before the saw loses accuracy. Bigger teeth help too, as chip size isn't directly related to tooth size, but the gullet size is. Even the saw blade thickness can assist. For all three of these reasons, that razor-like gent's saw is a pretty poor choice for dovetailing.

Even the "stick" handle doesn't help. One of the major inaccuracies in sawn dovetails is a neat cut that starts well, but sets off at the wrong angle. A saw handle that's extended vertically gives a much better "couple" for controlling this.

Japanese saws are similar to stick handles, but they're an oval handle rather than round, which helps a little. The action is also for the handle to "lead" the teeth, rather than to try and push them from behind. A Japanese saw is thus steered by _moving_ the handle from side to side, rather than trying to grasp it tightly and rotate it.

Iaido practice is on Thursday nights, round at my place. Sword or saw, take your pick - it's all the same wrist action.

[Andy Dingley]

Those are great - my favoured way of making drawers quickly

The trick is to spend forever and a half setting them up, then to machine a setting block at those settings. Next time you use the block to set them up correctly, first time.

[Andy Dingley]

Lousy dovetailer, IMHE. Mine has a _lot_ of dust on it these days.

[Larry Jaques]

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 05:29:08 GMT, patriarch calmly ranted:

OR, one could do the initial setup, make a decent set of drawer sides, and

1) measure the cutter height 2) mark it on the board 3) save the piece for use as a template. Repeat for each thickness board you will cut.

OR, simply cut a miter a board properly and save that as a Go/Nogo gauge. Set up the router/table with that as the height guide. It oughta be good to within 0.010", don't you think?