The subject "lip" has always apperared to be a "traditional" design element of sorts to me. The question is whether its genesis is based on "skill" or some other factor?
Many custom cabinetmakers attach the FF to the carcass with a groove. Whether the top of the bottom FF rail is flush with the top of the floor of the cabinet is just a matter of cutting either a rabbet or a groove in said rail. The "skill" is the same to cut either with a power tool, and a lot more skill to cut the groove which insures the "traditional" lip, by hand.
IOW, if there was indeed a "skill" factor involved in the days of yore, it seems that the lip could have taken a tad more skill to produce.
I've rarely seen a face frame cabinet without this "lip" ... even the Mexican 'cabinetmakers' around here who "build-in" monolithic units use it when doing the traditional face frame cabinet.
In short, if you see a face frame cabinet with the subject lip, don't automatically assume that it is somehow inferior and made with "less skilled" labor.
There is nothing stopping you from and wrong with the face frame extending past the bottom of the cabinet floor into the toe kick area. Typically the bottom of my Face Frames are 1"- 1 1/4" wide, extending past the bottom of the cabinet floor about 1/4" - 3/4".
Sorry about the focus (new camera, and all that) and the white in the cabinet corners are artifacts/reflection from the camera flash, but it will give you an idea of the subject.
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bottom rail is coming toward you ... the "lip" between the top of the FF rail and the floor of the cabinet is, in this case, subtle, but present.
As far as the much mentioned "cleaning" aspect of a subtle lip like this, it has never been a problem IME, and I'd bet that anyone with actual experience with this "design element" will verify that is rarely the case.
If "the lip" is a sign of craftsmanship/attention-to-detail, but you want to maintain "cleanability," then "just" chamfer the bottom rail's inside-top edge in advance of the FF assembly ;^)
I recently built a whole house full of cabinets, using 3/4" birch ply and common #2 pine lumber. They aren't "fine craftsman" quality, but they're certainly nicer than anything we saw at the home centers (and a lot less expensive).
I made the face frames by ripping 1x6 and 1x8 pine boards into 2" strips. I then cut selectively between the knots to end up with mostly clear lumber for the face frames. I cut the frames to size and assembled them with pocket screws.
I made my face frames the same height as the cabinet sides, and the cabinet bottom is flush with the top of the lower rail of the face frame. Despite my best efforts, I didn't always achieve "perfectly" flush joints between the cabinet and face frame. But, a few minutes with a palm sander resulted in perfectly smooth joints. Much easier to clean the shelves than if the face frame stuck up a bit.
One advantage to having the face frame hang below the cabinet bottom is the ability to mount undercabinet lights on the bottom of the cabinet.
I didn't do any fancy joinery with my cabinets. The carcass is simply glued and nailed together with an air nailer. I also glued and nailed the face frames on. The glue provides the strength, the nails just hold everything together till the glue drys. Yes, we had nail holes to set, fill, and sand, but that was a minor issue and just adds to the character of our cabinets.
The carcasses were made of the 3/4" birch plywood, except where the sides of the cabinet shows. For those I glued up pine boards into panels that would match the cabinet doors and fronts.
I finished the cabinets with Minwax "preconditioner", followed by a coat of Minwax "Windsor Oak" stain, and two coats of Olympic Oil Based Satin Polyurethane.
We were aiming for a "rustic" look and are very pleased with the results. I tried to leave a select number of tight knots in the pine panels and whatnot which further enhanced the rustic appearance.
The only item I wished I had done differently was to stain the door panels before assembling the doors. We built the doors first, then sanded, stained, and finished them. However, a few weeks after moving into our house, the heat and dryness from our woodstove allowed the door panels to shrink away from the door frames. So, there are small unfinished lines running along the insides of the door frames. No biggy, but it wreaks of inexperience... :) Live and learn...
By the way, my favorite book on cabinet building is "Building Kitchen Cabinets" by Udo Schmidt. It's part of Taunton's "Build Like A Pro" book series. I learned a lot from that book...
I think the "lip" is a matter of preference, which can be made into anything you wish it to be ... and, in many cases, justification for the label "less skilled" labor involved ... but not always.
Actually, with a subtle lip, like the kind I prefer, a bit of 220 grit to "break/ease the edges" (as DJM is fond of saying) before assembly is generally all it takes.
AND, for all the naysayers, there is at least one benefit to the "lip" in the cleaning controversy:
Anything spilled in the cabinet stays in the cabinet ... instead of dripping all over Mom's apple pie, or that roast that just came out of the oven, and sitting on the countertop.
What connects the rails to the stiles? Glue? Glue and biscuits? It _seems_ that in your process there is no force applied to the stiles into the rails. I'm not saying that this is necessarily a problem. TIA. -- Igor
Heh heh .. different strokes. As long as his casework is perfectly square by itself, this works, but I have never been that lucky.
Being one of those that if something can go wrong, it will, my preferred method is to always make the FF first and take great pains in their assembly and squareness, batch cutting all rails and stiles, and checking, and double checking, "square".
Any FF that is not dead-on perfect is scrapped.
The cabinet sides, floor, and top on a wall cabinet, are then assembled _on_ the perfectly square face frame.
From then on out the cabinet is absolutely "square", they butt up to similarly built cabinets with no gaps, and MOST importantly, the 36 doors and umpteen drawers are guaranteed to fit right ... the first time.
Roofs on, plumbing rough-in and top out passed, electrical and HVAC started ... now begins the endless minutiae and problem solving. Good news is that a serious offer has been made, so we're actively looking at lots for this year's start.
And speaking of cabinets ... I need to actually get off my duff and practice what I preach in the FF department, real sooooon now! :)
Do you mean this literally? Could you prvode more details? For exampl,e do you lay the assembled FF on the floor/table and then attach each cabinet piece, one at a time, to the FF? W/ biscuits? -- Igor
It is my understanding from Swingman's post that he measures the carcass _to_ the FF (I may be wrong about this), while you measure the FF to the carcass. Also, I thought that squaring of the cabinet was done and _set_ when the back piece is attached. Certainly that is what happens (and is all that could happen) w/ frameless cabs. So what is the big deal with FF and square? -- Igor
I jumped too soon. I build the carcus first, the face frame second, and then attach. After doing these for several years you learn what to watch out for.
Also, I thought that squaring of the cabinet was done and _set_
For the tops I use backs but still rely on the face frame to square and keep square the cavinet. For the bottom cabinets, which I have been building lots of lately I do not use backs for the cabinets. I leave it all open so that the plumbing does not become a nightmare when installing on bathroom and kitchen jobs. Typically the wall is painted white and it helps to make things lighter down there.
Certainly that is what happens (and is
Possibly so however I have never built any frameless Euro style cabinets.
So what is the big deal with FF
I do not know. It is very easy for me to build a square face frame and as long as the cabinet is built square and with equal height sides the frames fit great.
My first step is usually to build all the face frames, for both upper and lower cabinets, _before_ I ever buy any sheet goods.
Dado/grooves that accept the case parts are have been previously cut in the FF rails and stiles and then the FF assembled (sometimes days or weeks before the next step).
Dado/grooves that accept the floor, top and back panel have been precut into the cabinet sides
Previously made FF is laid on the assembly table, face down. The cabinet sides, floor and top are glued into the grooves pre-cut in the FF and cabinet sides.
Note: All parts (FF and case parts) are batch cut beforehand, as batch cutting is the best way to insure uniformity, accuracy, and therefore, "square". (I try to NEVER move a fence until all the parts with the same measurement have been cut.)
Assembling as above, using the known and carefully "square" built face frame as a template, insures a square cabinet follows.
"Square" means BIG, HUGE benefits/savings in time and money during installation, and the making and fitting of doors, drawers and door fronts.
This works well for me... as previously noted, it certainly is not the only, or even the "right", way to do it ... ymmv applies.
Oh, I agree. Was being a bit flip. I should have just said that if one WANTS the lip for whatever reason, then it could be chamfered to aid sweeping out crumbs/spills/messes/whatever. Of course it adds to production time, and more special handling of specific pieces.
The very reason I commented with the comment I commented with, the added cost of labor to sand the two surfaces flush with each other and not sand through the veneer on the cabinet bottom, i.e., experienced workman.
UA100, who doesn't have a problem with the lip, just that "better made" casework doesn't have a lip...
Ahh.. I am not saying the absence of a lip represents better made, just less fuss to produce the lip. I sometimes purposely design in a lip to cut down on labor time. A flush fit would be an exact fit where as with a lip any height within reason is acceptable.
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