Cabinet Contruction Question

[Wyatt Wright]

I'm using Jim Tolpin's book as a guide for building cabinets. I will either be using adjustable feet or building a separate level frame to provide for the toe kick.

In his book, he discusses using biscuits and screws in case construction as shown below with the biscuits in the ends of the floor. This doesn't make sense to me - won't that entire weight of the cabinet and counter now rest on the biscuits and screws?

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | _______ | | |_|-|_______|-|_|

It makes more sense to be put the biscuits on the end of the sides. That way, all of the weight resolves to the plywood bottoms.

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |_| |_| _|______________|_ __________________

Am I missing something? The only advantage that I can see from doing it Jim's way is that the stretchers can be cut with the same setup as the case floors. Or am I just over engineering and five biscuits and three screws more than strong enough?

[Swingman]

IME, forego the adjustable levellers on the base cabinets and either build in the toe kick, or use a ladder frame ...you will be glad in a few years, particularly if you ever install granite countertops.

LOL .. were you not just advising someone in another thread that this was a preferable "method of construction" for cabinets, that you had already built a few, and yet you are now questioning its soundness?

The screws and glue, if done correctly in the right material, will be strong enough for just about any application.

That said, I prefer using dadoes and rabbets for kitchen cabinet case construction, "time consuming" though that may be ... for reasons stated earlier in another thread, and for the knowledge that there will then be no need to ask the above question.

[Mark & Juanita]

What is your thought process regarding the above conclusion regarding granite countertops? If it is sagging, do you have any experience with such sagging occurring? I ask this as someone who is planning a cabinet upgrade prior to putting in granite countertops and I'm trying to get as much input as possible.

[Swingman]

Try bumping into a cabinet on leg levelers, particularly a on standalone, single cabinet installation, like you may see on either side of an appliance where they are only attached to a wall at the back, and see if you notice any movement.

Now try the same thing with a traditionally built cabinet, with built in toe kick, or sitting on, and firmly attached to, a ladder frame.

Leg levelers are undoubtedly convenient and are used in more and more installation, but to me they are a shortcut over _time_ tested methods and add an unknown-over-time variable to the equation, and one that can go out of adjustment with slight movement.

Granite, and most stones used in countertops, crack easily under stress. Distributing the weight of heavy stone countertops over the length of a cabinet's sides and back panels equates to less stress on the cabinet parts. Stress over time generally ends up in some type of movement, racking bowing, splaying, etc, however slight.

Distribute that weight just four points and you are asking for eventual trouble, IMO.

I'll freely admit that I am old fashioned and could be all wet on this issue, but I have been around long enough to notice that convenience, and shortcuts, almost always come at a price ... and even the hint that the price may include me coming back 5 years down the road and redoing, not just the cabinets, but likely paying for new countertops and back splash as well, doesn't induce me to use anything but time tested methods.

[Wyatt Wright]

Thanks for the response. I do intend to use either slate or granite tops so I will take your advice. One of the reasons that I didn't want to use a built-in toe kick was because it seems more difficult to level. To someone who has never done this before, a ladder frame appears to be much easier to level. It also makes the discussion below irrelevent as the case sides will get support from the ladder frame.

So. What material to use for the ladder frame? Do I have to worry about the stability of 2x4s from the Borg? Plywood seems better - two pieces laminated.

Yeah. I know. But I question everything :). In this case, I was questioning my own knowledge as much as anything else.

[Swingman]

Yes. Although it is done all the time without any apparent problems, partculary with built-in shelves, bookcases, etc.

Tom Watson said it best in a recent post, might want to look it up ... he prefers plywood, laminated, as you describe, as do I ... but I generally build in my toe-kicks into cabinets destined for the kitchen. I think it makes for an overall stronger cabinet, with the possibility of fewer, future problems.

Ever notice these posts where the guy is "reinforcing" his current installation in order to apply granite/stone countertops?

Do it right the first time ... nuff said.

Strictly my opinion and $.02

[Jeffrey Thunder]

I've never worked with granite (or other stone) countertops, but a large granite countertop sounds awfully heavy. I wonder, is "european" style cabinetry used in such circumstances? Or is it not suitable for the loads?

For that matter, I know that when designing a roof for a house you have to take into consideration the type of roofing material. (A roof designed for typical asphalt shingles is not adequate for cement tiles, for example.) Is it standard practice to specially engineer cabinets which will be used with extremely heavy countertop materials? Maybe it isn't standard practice, but good practice?

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that putting a large granite countertop on generic kitchen cabinets is asking for trouble.

[Swingman]

Depending upon the granite, a 3/4" slab weighs in at around 15 - 20 lbs/sf.

IMO, if the boxes are properly made, out of good material, and care taken in installation, it is quite feasible.

[nospambob]

[Mark & Juanita]

... snip

Thanks, definitely something to think about.

[Charles Spitzer]

considering that the time tested manner for tile countertops is 3/4" ply followed by about 1" of concrete, it's not much different than granite. you can put concrete countertops on regular cabinets without reinforcement. most fishtank stands are built with the load carried on vertical plywood pieces. a 120 gallon tank is about 1000lbs.

wood works well in compression.

[jev]

Top of the line European manufactured cabinets have used leg levelers for many years. I had Poggenpohl cabinets, manufactured in Germany, in former house which I installed myself and had Corian countertops throughout - probably 50 linear feet plus a huge center island. In 15 years never had a single problem.

I think many seem to be of the opinion that because you use levellrs the cabs are 'freestanding'. In fact, after leveling the cabs are screwed to wall and to screwed/bolted to each other. Additional stability can be supplied by screwing thru foot of leveller with square drive trim screw ( here's where we say see Mcfeeeley catalog).

[Unisaw A100]

Yes. Use a continuous fir ply sub-top and allow for an eighth inch for mastic and leveling.

UA100

[J. Clarke]

Also a beam with 20+ inch depth has quite remarkable bending strength.