Biscuit joining expectations

[GerryG]

Agreed. Check both flat across blade twice (at 90 deg angles) with straight edge, and flat across teeth against flat surface with raking light, both sides.

Actually, firstly check if the blade is loose or has any wobble felt by hand (after unplugging, of course).

Second, I'd clamp it open (engaged) and put a block against the edge of the blade, mark the spot, light behind and rotate by hand. The eye should be able to pick up anything more than a .004 or so change.

IOW, try to do most checks before you take anything apart, so nothing gets "temporarily" fixed. Once you know which dimension is off, you can take it apart to find the exact cause.

GerryG

[GerryG]

[Jim Bailey]

Point well taken Gerry - shouldn't make people trying to help me chase the thread all around.

Thanks for all the help.

[Bruce]

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:42:59 -0700, Jim Bailey wrote (in article ):

I found that to get good vertical alignment you need to put equal amounts of glue on each side. If one side has it thick and one has it thin, it'll move unevenly. Clamps can also help even the surfaces if any small misalignment is unacceptable.

-Bruce

[GerryG]

That doesn't really sound right. For one, the glue should always be put in the slot, and not on the side of the biscuit, as you may have indicated, else it will start to swell too soon and glue may be scraped off as it's inserted.

Next, the biggest advantage of biscuits is the vertical alignment. You've seen the numbers for the slot and biscuits sizes. If you need to (or even can) influence vertical alignment with glue or clamps, something is wrong. Or, are you talking about differences of On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:42:59 -0700, Jim Bailey wrote

[bluemax1811-newsgroups]

Jim,

I bought the exact same kit you got from Amazon. I'm out of town now so I cannot go check it closely, but I am absolutely sure it doesn't create the sloppy slots you describe. In fact it seems to work precisely in my useage.

If you can return it to Amazon for full credit, I'd do that, then order a replacement. It will be by far the fastest way to get it handled.

The only "problem" I experienced when I first used mine was inexperience and I inadvertantly rested the joiner on the table top instead of the top of the wood and my slots did not line up. I now know to put the wood on a spacer block or something to make sure its well clear of any table or vice surfaces when I align the joiner to make the cut.

Bob

[CW]

Standard biscuit is 4mm. .1574"

[Jim Bailey]

Thanks Bob - I'll try them today - I hate the idea of having to ship a new tool off to the service center. I was extremely carefull about my technique when testing this. And it acts the same way with the FF cutter installed as well.

jim

[Duane Bozarth]

...

If you can't determine (and easily fix) the problem by cleanup of the arbor/mount/etc., I'd suggest it probably would be quicker to simply return it to Amazon as Bob suggests rather than go w/ the service center.

PITA, but I'd take may chances on a replacement since you'll have shipping charges either way...

[Jim Bailey]

Just got off Amazon's return pages. Within minutes I had an email confirmation of the new order and that it would be shipped UPS 2 day. And a link to print a prepaid return label ! All i have to do is get it back to them within 30 days or they'll charge me for both units.

I'm impressed !

jim

[Dan Oelke]

I measured mine last night and did some more joints, and didn't have the same problems I was having. The slots I measured came out right at 0.156 to 0.157. The biscuits I forget exactly but I believe they were 0.148 +/-0.002.

I assume that my problems were operator error on the first couple of joints I made - not holding the tool or workpiece steady as I made the cut.

I still had some vertical alignment issues last night - but it is more along the lines of being able to catch the fingernail as you slide across the joint. I figure that is only a couple of thou difference and easily taken care of by the sander.

I hadn't used a biscuit joiner until the last couple of days and I am really liking it. Lets me make no-fastener joints in places I couldn't before, and is SO much faster than using the doweling jig. Not to mention a whole lot more forgiving on alignment issues than dowels. I put some solid banding (2.5" wide) on some plywood last night using it. I ended up using 16 biscuits and didn't have any major alignment issues. I couldn't imagine trying to do that with dowels and not having at least one hole be off just a hair - enough to be a pain in the....

Dan

[Duane Bozarth]

...Yeah, as long as the automated engine(s) do what you want to do, it works pretty well...questions out of the ordinary aren't necessarily so clean, however.

Their interaction system for odd/unusual events is very difficult--they hide their responders behind anonymous addresses and have only a web-based engine that removes all context for any response to theirs. Since it's also not a case of where a single individual will follow up on the original it often takes a bunch of tries to finally get the actual issue resolved. Of course, Amazon is far from unique in this w/ online stores--Dell, for example, is a real pita if one has anything that doesn't fit the normal model.

Not a rant, per se, just an observation having a concurrent issue pending...

[mac davis]

going to make a fool of myself again, but answering on the way out to the shop without reading other replies:

Check the depth of cut.. sounds too deep... Most B-joiners have instructions for initial setup/adjustment.. quick guess would be depth, since you used a #20 and therefor aren't cutting a $10 hole for a #0 biscuit

mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

[San Diego Joe]

Amazon is usually very good about that kind of stuff. I own the PC and have been very pleased with it.

San Diego Joe

[Bruce]

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:44:25 -0700, GerryG wrote (in article ):

My comment was meant more to imply consistency. Glue in the slot alone (without spreading up the sides with a brush) usually will leave the biscuit sides dry. My applications haven't really required excessive neatness and yes, I do get a fair amount of squeeze out (I use tape to catch it). I haven't really noticed early expansion problems, but I'm quick to get the assembly together and rarely use more than eight biscuits at a time.

On the consistency issue I have found it better to drop the fence (PC cutter) and reference on the top edges of the "display" side. I have found more alignment error when resting both the board surfaces and cutter on the table. My reasoning is that if you reference the cutter directly to the board, you eliminate any possible errors with a cutter-to table-to board method of referencing.

Either way, there will always be a degree of error...

[GerryG]

Agreed, Bruce. Every book, guide and tutorial I've seen stresses that you should use a brush, stick or other implement to spread the glue on the sides of the slot. It's one of the basics of using the tool. When you said "equal amounts on each side" I couldn't see how you could do that with a narrow slot, so assumed you must be talking about the biscuit, but perhaps not.

As to us>On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:44:25 -0700, GerryG wrote

[Bruce]

On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:47:08 -0700, GerryG wrote (in article ):

Yep, the biscuit. My procedure is to squirt a daub of glue in the slot, spread it around with an acid (flux) brush, then brush on a thin layer of glue to the sides of the biscuit. The error can come (in the extreme case) by not spreading the glue in the slot and only placing glue on one side of the biscuit.

I think the biggest source of accumulated error when referencing off the table is when slotting warped stock.

-Bruce

[GerryG]

When I first started with biscuits, I cut open some joints to see just how well it was bonded, under different conditions. It's not difficult (or expensive) to quickly try a dozen variations on a single piece of scrap. I tried different amounts of glue and how well it was spread. Found the right amount of glue and such gives a solid joint with little squeeze-out. As expected, found MDF, particle board and such absorbs more glue. You either apply a bit more or, like when gluing end grain, put on a thin coat then add more a few minutes later. Now, the reason for expounding on this: if you add glue to the biscuit, you're then very limited on time, and I don't see any advantage. I build carcasses with shelves and such that may need several dozen biscuits applied at once. With clamps and all laid in position, I take a bag of biscuits and a small rubber mallet. Each biscuit is pushed in, then 2 hammer taps, then the next. It makes for very neat and quick construction.

My point was that a sizeable sheet may be well flat enough for the project, but still have enough gap to the table to produce an error. It's a matter of paying close attention to the details. I've seen as many errors with the fence, where the torque from starting the motor jars your hold on the fence against the piece. Seen many people starting to plunge before starting the joiner which makes this easy to happen. GerryG

[bridger]

I *always* glue both the slot and the biscuit. occasionally I'll have to tap a biscuit into place.

[Bruce]

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:39:16 -0700, GerryG wrote (in article ):

Have you ever tried one of those "biscuit" glue applicators? I've seen TheNorm use one and they seem to speed application. I actually have a cheap one but given the pain it would be to clean and my infrequent use of biscuits I've never tried it.

In your tests, have you ever dissected an end-grain to end-grain joint? Whenever I had to do this I've just used a half lap, figured biscuits would be too weak.

-Bruce