I've made a couple of tests of the relative strengths of these two glues, and my empirical testing (limited, but real-world) tells me that the Extend isn't as strong as the regular. The mfgr. literature shows them to be very close in strength and their tech support line concurs with their official position.
dave
It's still stronger than the wood, right? If the wood fibers will separate before the glue joint fails, what difference does it make if one glue that's stronger than the wood isn't quite as strong as some other glue that's also stronger than the wood?
-- Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?
that's the problem. the glue adhered to the end grain and didn't stick to the face of the test pieces. I got essentially the same result twice in a row. About 10% of the failed side had wood slivers extracted, but the remainder of the glued joint had all the glue separated from it as it failed. So it WASN'T stronger than the wood. NOW do you see why I'm concerned about using a product for the first time? It's not doing what I'd expect. Reality is more important to me than advertising, claims, anecdotes, and opinion.
dave
Doug Miller wrote:
On 12 Dec 2003, Bay Area Dave spake unto rec.woodworking:
No one, and by that I mean NOT A FREAKING SOUL, makes glued end-grain joints, Dave. Or end-grain to face-grain joints. So your premise is BAD to begin with.
Make two identical mortise and tenon joints, glue one with each kind, and pull them apart with a hydraulic press. There's probably a measurable difference in the strength. But unless you are going to subject the furniture you build to that extreme, it isn't going to make a bit of difference.
Well _Duh_ !
i gave a partial explanation. I also did face to face and it failed.
dave
Scott Cramer wrote:
this was a COMPARATIVE test; a test between two TYPES of adhesive; therefore the test was one of less-than-ideal joints, Andy!
dave
Andy D> >
Hmmm... Not that I want to disagree with your disagreeing with that idiot in my killfile, but... I made some poster frames too short. They're completely supported by the posters, and need no strength, so I just fitted in some extra pieces, end grain to end grain, no dowels. So, yes, I did it.
Didn't last worth a damn though. I broke two of them just assembling the frames. For this, it didn't really matter. They look fine on the wall, unless you get too close, and if you're that close to a poster, get a life!
Dave,
As always you're not listening to the people who replied to yet another worthless thread started by you.
JOAT wants to know what kind of controls you used in your testing. Even a white trash yokel, like me, living in a trailer knows that testing in an uncontrolled environment provides meaningless results. Somehow I think the qualified scientists at Titebond performed multiple controlled tests using top of the line scientific measuring devices to arrive at their conclusions. Now I know that doesn't rank up there with your observations, but I'm going to go with their results.
Dave and Andy try to apply some real world logic to your conclusions.
They're all right but you still have to argue your point, which leads me to the obvious question:
Are you ever not a horse-dick?
Rich
Why would you bother to test a joint that is doomed to fail, regardless of adhesive used?
I don't know WHY I took him out of mine...I guess hope springs eternal that these proponents of rudeness will turn over a new leaf...what was I thinking?? :)
dave
Silvan wrote: snip
worse case scenario. A destructive test is worthless if there is no failure, my friend!
dave
Rick Chamberla> >
back to the plonkee list - P L O N K !
dave
Rich wrote:
Well, no kidding. The end grain wicked all the glue out of the joint. That's the expected result when attempting to make such a joint, which of course is why the mortise-and-tenon joint was invented.
No surprise there either.
This is the expected behavior from a glue-starved joint.
Assumes facts not in evidence. It's not possible to assess the strength of the glue, because there wasn't any in the joint to begin with.
You should be more concerned about why you expected such a joint to hold. The results were _exactly_ what I'd expect from a joint constructed as you describe.
Is it indeed? Reality dictates that one not attempt to make butt joints in end grain without some sort of reinforcement (mortise & tenon, biscuit, spline, half-lap, rabbet, what have you) so as to provide long grain to long grain glue surfaces, and that if one persists in doing so anyway, that one should expect exactly such joint failures as you have experienced.
-- Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?
What, exactly, was your purpose in conducting, and comparing the results of, two utterly meaningless tests?
-- Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?
what part of "test" didn't you understand, Mr. Fountain of Knowledge? This wasn't a project, it was a "destructive" test. sigh. Go back to one of the other newsgroups and impress them with your intelligence.
dave
Doug Miller wrote:
It was a meaningless test, because its design guaranteed that no relevant, useful information could be obtained from it -- unless you intend to actually build furniture using unreinforced end-grain joints such as the ones you "tested".
-- Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?
last time, let me reiterate: it was COMPARATIVE! regular vs extended. regular held much better. plus the extended failed on face to face glue-up; it came apart with hand pressure, but that may have been because I stressed that joint within 4 hours of gluing, but it practically fell apart the next morning.
can we please drop this??
dave
Doug Miller wrote:
Dave, which one of us had to perform actual testing in order to realize that unreinforced end-grain joints have no strength?
Which one of us drew the wrong conclusion, i.e. that the glue was at fault?
Hint: it wasn't _me_ either time.
-- Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?
MY conclusion so far, is that the regular glue is doing a better job than the extended. Regardless of advertised claims.
dave
Doug Miller wrote:
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