What use for WW2 steel ?

Would this be pre-nuclear, so of use calibrating things ?

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Three Dutch World War Two ships considered war graves have vanished from the bottom of the Java Sea, the Dutch defence ministry says. All three were sunk by the Japanese during the Battle of the Java Sea in

1942, and their wrecks were discovered by divers in 2002. But a new expedition to mark next year's 75th anniversary of the battle has found the wrecks are missing. A report in the Guardian says three British ships have disappeared as well. The Guardian says it has seen 3D images showing large holes in the seabed where HMS Exeter, HMS Encounter, the destroyer HMS Electra, as well as a US submarine, used to be. Experts say salvaging the wrecks would have been a huge operation. The Dutch defence ministry is to investigate the mysterious disappearance. In a statement, it said that two of its ships had completely gone, with sonar images only showing imprints, while large parts of a third ship, a destroyer, were missing. "The desecration of a war grave is a serious offence," the ministry said. Deep sea salvage: How to recover lost treasures of the deep Map of Indonesia showing location of Battle of Java sea just north of Java Theo Doorman, 82, son of legendary Rear Admiral Karel Doorman, who led the battle, was on the expedition which hoped to film the wrecks two weeks ago. He said he could not believe his eyes when the sonar images came in, showing only a groove where his father's ship had been. "I was sad," he said. "Not angry. That doesn't get you anywhere. But sad. For centuries is was a custom not to disturb sailors' graves. But it did happen here." Image of HNLMS JavaImage copyrightNETHERLANDS INSTITUTE OF MILITARY HISTORY The Battle of the Java Sea 27 February 1942 Allied action to stop Japanese Navy Dutch, British, Australian, US forces ships involved Five cruisers and nine destroyers involved, Led by Rear-Admiral Karel Doorman Only two ships remained Vanished ships are HNLMS De Ruyter, HNLMS Java, and HNLMS Kortenaer Defeat led to the Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies (now Indonesia) The seas around Indonesia, Singapore and Malaysia are a graveyard for hundreds of ships and submarines sunk during the war. Illegal salvaging of the wrecks for steel, aluminium and brass has become commonplace. But the three missing wrecks were located 100km (60 miles) off the coast of Indonesia, at a depth of 70m. Salvage operators say it would not be easy to lift them. "It is almost impossible to salvage this," Paul Koole of the salvage film Mammoet told the Algemeen Dagblad. "It is far too deep." Experts say the operation would have needed large cranes for long periods of time and would be unlikely to have gone unnoticed. The Indonesian Navy, when contacted by the BBC, said they were unaware of the disappearance but said they would investigate. "To say that the wreckage had gone suddenly, doesn't make sense," Navy spokesman Colonel Gig Sipasulta said. "It is underwater activities that can take months even years." The Dutch authorities have also notified the other countries that formed part of the international expedition: the UK, Australia and the US.
Reply to
Jethro_uk
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That was my immediate thought. There would be other metal scrap there as well, brass, copper, bronze, that sort of thing, and probably more valuable than the steel, but I recall from many years ago hearing the comment that steel from old WW2 warships was valuable for shielding sensitive radiation detectors, because they weren't contaminated by radioactivity from the nuclear weapons and tests from the late 1940's and 1950's.

Razor blades was another suggested destination for old warships; I don't know why ordinary steel wouldn't do, but there's so much recycling of metals of all sorts these days that there's no such thing as pure steel any more, apparently; it's all contaminated with traces of this and that. Perhaps modern steel can't take the temper or be sharpened like old steel. Any metallurgists here?

The other alternative is that the wrecks just rusted away and collapsed into two-dimensional heaps, so not visible on sonar any more, but I would have thought the sonar guys looking for the old warships would know all about that possibility and have discounted it.

Reply to
Chris Hogg

Plus, of course, the long running rumour that a Dutch ship saw the Japanese Pearl Harbour fleet underway, reported it to a Royal Naval ship who radioed the news to London, where a Winston Churchill desperate to ensure the entry of the US replied with orders to scuttle the Dutch ship and kill the crew.

All lovely tinfoil hat stuff. Slightly marred by the fact the US were aware *something* was in the air before Pearl Harbour, as they had broken the Japanese encryption.

However, as WW2 in it's entirety showed, even having access to accurate information before an event is no guarantee of a successful outcome.

Reply to
Jethro_uk

There's plenty of iron ore still being mined. If recycled steel wasn't suitable for a particular application you could always start from scratch.

Another Dave

Reply to
Another Dave

Oh, that's a juicy one I'd not heard before. But I wouldn't put it past Churchill. It's said that during WW1 when he was First Lord of the Admiralty, he refused to notify the US, or perhaps just the Captain of the Lusitania, that there was a German submarine, U20, operating in the Irish Sea, in the hope that the Lusitania would be sunk and the US forced to join the war. If the Lusitania had been warned she could have diverted north of Ireland, so avoiding the sub, but the sub got her and Churchill got his wish.

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Reply to
Chris Hogg

there are all sorts of different steels, with different elements being added to give different properties.

Reply to
charles

That's very true, and discounts that particular explanation. Perhaps it was more likely in the 1950's, when special steel might have been in short supply post-war.

Reply to
Chris Hogg

you just add the elements you want to make the type of steel you want.

Reply to
critcher

I'd have said the initial "low hanging fruit" would be the copper alloys. I wonder whether explosive charges might have been used to break up the structures, to make it easier to find valuable stuff. That might also result in the structures collapsing more rapidly under the influence of currents and tides.

I've heard the "shielding" argument too, but recovering rusty plate from the bottom of the sea sounds a hard way to do it.

Reply to
newshound

The only reason I've ever heard for using steel from old warships is that i t's uncontaminated with radioactive fallout or irradition (assuming it's be en raised from the sea bed) and of use for shielding where precise control or measurement of radiation is required.

Reply to
Halmyre

It tends to be old battleships etc. that are used as they have much thicker steel. The missing Dutch ships were destroyers & a light cruiser.

Reply to
mcp

I suspect that's an old saying:

"What happened to your old car?" "Oh, they took it away. It's probably razor blades by now"

ie they don't turn scrap steel into actual razor blades, it turns into shredded steel which gets melted down and turned into whatever steel gets used for, of which razor blades is a utilitarian example. I suspect razor blades or tins of beans are not particularly fussy what purity of steel goes into them unlike, say, jet engines.

Theo

Reply to
Theo

It indeed does seem odd, as the cost of doing such things seems to make it uneconomic, plus the cost of crossing some local palms with silver to keep quiet about it of course. Are we definitely sure that they are gone, not just they are looking in the wrong place due to an admin error? Brian

Reply to
Brian Gaff

An NZ friend points out that there have been some very large earthquakes in that region since then, which might well have moved things around.

Reply to
Jon Fairbairn

The report says there were ship-shaped (?!) depressions where they expected the wrecks.

That said, navigating the ocean -or rather the seabed; even with GPS seems to be one of those things that sounds easy, but has hidden complexities.

Reply to
Jethro_uk

IIRC the discovery of the wreck of the Lusitania prompted a minor flurry of warnings from the MoD and the US ????

Reply to
Jethro_uk

Pre nuclear WWII steel is quite valuable for nuclear shielding of ultrasensitive radiation detectors. Anything smelted post airburst era has traces of nuclear fallout in that is detrimental to such work.

They zone refine more exotic materials to get it clean but it isn't worth the effort for steel when so many old warships are available.

Reply to
Martin Brown

Apparently the dents in the seabed are still there, just not the wrecks....

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

The news report I saw yesterday said the places where the ships had been were quite obvious still.

Reply to
charles

May have complexities but I'm pretty sure that they've been solved given that drilling ships can "hover" over a well head on the seabed using GPS to allow deep water drilling.

Tim

Reply to
Tim+

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