Using ladders for cleaning windows to be made illegal.

[robert]

Got this form another newsgroup. It appears that as from next summer it could be illegal to climb a ladder tp clean windows, gutters, etc. Details are here.

[Harvey Van Sickle]

On 12 Dec 2004, wrote

From what I can see, the draft specifically excludes private householders -- unless acting as an employer and hiring someone like a tree-trimmer to do work for them -- and whilst it seeks to encourage other approaches (like pole-cleaning of windows instead of ladder access), Para 56 implies that ladders will continue to be used. ("The safety of sole workers who use ladders, such as window-cleaners, depends significantly on their correct use, and adequate training is essential" seems obvious rather than overly restrictive to me.)

I figure the basic approach is right: working at height from ladders should be a last resort rather than a default choice.

[Set Square]

As far as I can see, this is an extension to the Health and Safety *at Work* Act - and applies to people who are *employed* to work at height.

Unless I'm mistaken, it has no relevance to unpaid DIY activities.

[Broadback]

What puzzles me is that in the late 50s early 60 in Germany all modern buildings had windows designed so that they could be cleaned from inside,why don't we do that? Before the wags come along they tilted/opened inwards and when open the outside of any fixed window could be reached through the opening. We always had clean windows, not window cleaners smears.

[Brian G]

If that is the case, where is the provision to allow for the use of ladders in emergencies - is that stated in this document?

Brian G

[Harvey Van Sickle]

On 12 Dec 2004, Brian G wrote

I can't find it, either.

AFAICT, all it says is to try to avoid working at height (for windows, for example, to consider pole-cleaning instead of ladder-and-rag), but if unavoidable or impractical, employers will need to supply proper equipment and train people properly in using that equipment. (Houseowners doing their own work are expressly excluded.)

As for ladders, the main point seems to be "except in restricted cases, ladders are for access; they're not working platforms" -- which doesn't strike me as an outrageous starting point.

[Richard Sterry]

Rick

[Coherers]

Is a self-employed window cleaner going to have to pay to go on a course to teach himself how not to fall off the ladder? Hmmmmm.....

And I wonder who paid for this 168 page document to be put together.

I imagine the cost of having a few panes wiped professionally will go up even more, and a few infirm people will fall off ladders when trying to do it themselves because they can't afford the window cleaner any more.

[Harvey Van Sickle]

On 12 Dec 2004, Coherers wrote

Did you read the document? From the scan I made of it, it appeared to go into relatively good detail about self-employed vs employed regs.

Possibly.

But are the problems at householder level a valid reason not to make regs, and thus to let employers -- on a building site, say (where I've seen this sort of stuff most often) -- get away with "don't be such a wimp, Freddie: get up your ass up there and clean the effin' thing; you'll soon get the hang of it if you don't fall off".

[Steve Walker]

a ladder is already considered as a poor option - it can be done, but other means should be used *where reasonable and practical*. ie: window cleaners can use ladders, as can someone nipping up to clean a gutter, but someone retiling a roof would be expected use scaffolding. Someone fitting a light in a factory could use a ladder, but someone fitting or maintaining dozens of them would be expected to use a mobile tower or a cherry-picker.

All these rules apply only to *work*, not to diy.

Steve W

[Coherers]

Absolutely not. I thought I'd let someone else do that for me ;-)

One wants a sensible balance between wealth-generating activity and a safe working environment. I think the likely result of all this will be that the firms who do everything by the book will tend to be priced out by the cowboys - who don't give a monkeys about their workmen. If the rules are sensible and simple then I would support them. But with the consultative document at 168 pages, 24 pp of regulations and 50 pp of "guidance notes", I seriously doubt it. Who can possibly take all that in, on top of all the other reams of rules businesses have to work through now? Like so much well-intentioned legislation (Part P anyone?) it will just add to the pile of regulations that encourage people in the belief that all safety rules are bunk and can be safely ignored. Counter-productive.

[Owain]

"Steve Walker" wrote | This is just bringing together parts of existing legislation. ...

"Harvey Van Sickle" wrote | As for ladders, the main point seems to be "except in restricted | cases, ladders are for access; they're not working platforms" -- | which doesn't strike me as an outrageous starting point.

IOW, the HSE's 2004 entry in the Cybil Fawlty Awards For Stating The Bleedin' Obvious.

Owain

[raden]

In message , [e-mail] writes

I had the HSE round this year checking that we weren't e.g. repairing pcbs while perched atop unsafe platforms 20 ft up in the air etc ...

[Andrew Gabriel]

I would imagine they might be concerned with soldering fumes. Which brings me on to a question which you probably know the answer to... I noticed Maplin now only stock lead-free solder. Is this a legal requirement now or in the near future? I recall hearing about removing lead from the electronics industry some years back, but I haven't heard anything recently. Only other clue I've noticed is that manufacturers data sheets for electronic components have started specifying components leads are tinned with lead-free solder in some cases.

[John Rumm]

that ? because of the wide application of the Regulations we need as much information and comment as possible to make them workable and relevant to the real risks of working at height."

The implied subtitle being, "unlike most other consultation documents, we have not already made our minds up while going throught the motions of consultation for the sake of appearances...."

[Dave Stanton]

Yes, at work we have gone lead free over the last 12 months. Takes some getting used to lead free solder after 20 odd years.

Dave

[raden]

In message , Andrew Gabriel writes

No, not at all. Even when I was showing off the fume extractor system it was more a case of "err .. OK"

Not yet, as far as I know. I know there are moves towards it, but, as you said it's all gone a bit quiet, and, getting through a 500gm reel / man / month (am I the only person who's ever got through a reel of solder here ?) I'd better keep my ear to the ground.