One of the responses (John Rumm) to my recent "getting tile adhesive off a wall plaster wall" mentioned "Tile 'n Grout Abominations" and I wonder John - what exactly is wrong with them? For tiling a shower should I take my Tile 'n Grout back and get what?
Keith
Use that purely as the adhesive and get a separate grout.
When I ripped out my airing cupboard as part of a complete bathroom make-over, I replaced it with a corner 'offset quadrant' shower cubicle. Although I fully tiled the bathroom itself, I lined the shower cubicle with 'Mermaid' boards. I've not regretted it. The boards are very easy to clean and there is no problem with discoloured grout...
-- Triff
I'll never use anything other than Mermaid or the other similar boards again
Well, there is a reason adhesive and grout are different products, they do different things and need different properties. If you buy a combined product, it probably compromises both functions. It may be "good enough" - that's your call.
I loathe Mermaid panels. I've had a shower panelled in "kerlite" from Cotto d'Este the panels are "gres" porcelain and are available in large sizes.
AFAIK the combined product is just a pure white adhesive, whereas standard adhesive is off white. Mainly for those who are going to fill the grout lines with adhesive anyway :-)
I've use it on occasion in non critical places. It is less than ideal at either function, but its a simple way for a novice DIYer to get a wall of tiles up without understanding that much about what he's doing.
Use of mermaid paneling is an entirely separate issue. You can line a shower in stainless steel if you want. but it has no ace in a discussion about tiling.
As with most products of this type, they are a bit of a compromise; they stick like grout, and grout like glue!
As an adhesive they lack the instant grab and slip resistance that a proper tile glue offers. This is perhaps ok if only tiling a small area but it does make it easier for tiles tend to slip out of position.
(they have a longer "open time" than the professional products - hence the popularity in the DIY shops - you can tit about with positioning for longer after applying the tiles)
When grouting, its much harder to work and float into the gaps since it is also sticky. Its also harder to clean off. Being a pre-mixed product, its usually bound with an acrylic material of some sort that cures by drying out. IME these don't tend to last as well as the cementious based grouts that cure even when wet. (The cement based grouts also respond better to after treatment with products like Lithofin grout protector)
Finally dry self mixed products tend to offer better shelf life, and the consistency can be altered to suit the application.
For tiling a shower specifically, personally I would ensure that you are using a backing that won't disintegrate if it gets wet. Use a waterproof adhesive[1], and actually skim the whole surface with it to a depth of about 3mm as a solid bed, and then add ribbing only to the top surface of that rather than right through it to the substrate. Fix tiles, then grout using a dry mixed waterproof grout. Float off and allow to dry for a few mins, then sponge off to give final finish. Once totally dry, polish with dry paper towels to remove the fine white film[2]. Finally in the shower area paint grout protector along all the lines.
For vertical corners, and the joints abutting the shower tray, don't grout at all; use a decent silicone instead.
[1] Decent brand like Nicobond or Bal etc. [2] Don't try washing it off - else you will be playing that game many many times over!
Combination Tile & Grout is an abomination. It has too little viscosity as an adhesive, so tiles will slide down the wall with it when you try to place them.
It's not as obviously bad as a grout, but you'll have thrown it away long before that stage.
In the future, it's either not waterproof enough to be a good grout, or it's too waterproof to be easily cleanable as an adhesive, per the other thread.
Sounds like a good wiki article John
NT
Isn't it normal to provide some sort of baseline support for wall tiles - especially large and heavy ones? But I think you're being over critical. I tiled a large bathroom and shower room using Homebase stuff which was on special offer. Didn't grout with it, though.
I think it's worse. It takes some removing from a glazed surface when dry, unlike ordinary grout.
I've only used separate dedicated products, and to point out some of the obvious differences: Grout is based on finer sand than the adhesive. Adhesive contains a very powerful bonding agent which the grout does not. Some grouts contain a waterproofer, although you can buy ad-mix waterproofer for grouts which don't. Given the different properties required, the adhesive may use a sharper sand than the grout.
I thought this was going to be a call for photos.
My kitchen's got a few tile & grout abominations (fit the electric sockets first then tile round them)
My last kitchen someone used clear silicone instead of grout.
Owain
Aaaargh - no! I had to fit several new sockets to a friend's house the other day. Dunno what the tenant was doing to them, but they'd managed to knacker several Volex sockets. Had to smash them to get them out of the grout and then the new ones wouldn't fit in the hole but the cable wasn't long enough to let them sit on top. Nasty - took far longer than it should have done.
TBH I can't remember what I used last time, except that it wasn't Kerlite. At £108 per square meter, probably out of my price bracket. What I had was good quality plywood (9 or 12 mm?) with brown melamine on one side, patterned on the other. Supplier also stocked coated extruded aluminium for corners. What was your problem with Mermaid?
First off, you probably do. But this stuff offers so little support vertically that the stack of tiles above the support can become so heavy that it forces the whole column off the wall. If you are using it, don't set more than three courses before letting it dry.
In some cases as well, you're tiling from a horizontal laser datum downwards to something uneven or not an integral number of tiles. In this case even one tile won't stay still.
Really though, just what is this stuff _for_? What problem is it solving? Some weirdo "Take two buckets into the untiled shower?" hypothetical problem that noone really has.
Had trouble with this, once, and found that snapped-off bits of snap-off knife blades could be pushed into the plaster to support the tile until the adhesive grabbed. Very effective and very little interference with the process - just don't run your hand over the tiles until you've got them out again!
The other problem with that particular job was the grout freezing to the wall while I was spreading it. In hindsight it might have been better to get the heating working first.
Dry lining screws work quite well for this impromptu support application
- tad easier to remove after as well ;-)
I've certainly been delighted with my Mermaid panels. They are in an ultra modern 'streaked rust' effect (which sounds awful - but looks great). The shiny aluminium corner moulding matches the shower frame and everything is
100% water-tight.I've yet to see a tiled shower cubicle that does not look unsightly with discouloured grout after a few months of use. Wiping a Mermaid board down is a lot easier than scrubbing at discoloured grout with a nail-brush and bathroom cleaner!
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