Thermal stores and solar

resumably already committed to buying. If you're already going for a woood= stove(?) fired thermal store, then this solar extra makes sense. (ALthough = the external heat exchanger approach is a good one too.)

lar capital costs are 50% to achieve space heating, 50% (or more) to add on hot water and a thermal = store. So unless you're opening a Spanish laundry, solar heating is (IMHO) = a great way to space-heat in UK autumn and spring, but an over-expensive wa= y to heat your hot water.

eated floor system for that.

I sort of see the two components here as different: On the one hand, the t= hermal store (driven from=20 the gas boiler) will provide advantages in configuring the DHW for the hous= e (a 6-bed Victorian on 3=20 storeys) as it will give mains pressure HW through an external heat exchang= er without the issues=20 associated with unvented cylinders. From an economic point of view, that= =92s already going to be =91paid=20 for=92 under that agenda (including allowing an en suite to be installed on= the top floor), so anything else=20 I do with it is at marginal cost. On the other hand (time and enthusiasm permitting), it may provide the flex= ibility to go a bit green by=20 playing with the solar side, which appealed to the experimenter in me rathe= r than thinking of it as=20 necessarily cost effective per se (which it would probably never be if I bo= ught a ready made solar=20 system), but the cost wouldn=92t be great if I DIY, which would allow me to= customise the design to=20 exploit the site. Now, as part of other works, over the next year or two I shall be laying a = couple of new floor slabs=20 (conservatory refurb, kitchen extension) =96 in all about 50m2 and (to me a= t least) it makes sense to=20 incorporate UFH into these whilst laying them anyway. Given the different temperature requirements of the UFH, it may be sensible= to consider driving this=20 from the thermal store rather than directly from the boiler. If there was = a significant solar=20 contribution, this would then be exploited by the UHF. If that works out (= as you indicate it=20 might), so much the better, but my initial thinking was that the solar yiel= d wouldn=92t be enough to make=20 a serious impact here. I could, of course, easily be wrong. In a way it d= oesn=92t matter: If solar helps,=20 then fine, if not, I=92m back where I started, running it all from the boil= er. Wood burning isn=92t really on=20 the agenda at present but who knows?=20 At present this is all in the planning stage, and I haven=92t committed to = anything. In the spirit of=20 =91measure twice, cut once=92, I like to think through all the connotations= of future plans while I=92m doing=20 the current jobs (finish living room, refurb d/stairs bog etc) so I have th= e details worked out before I start and avoid stupid/expensive/time consumi= ng mistakes, especially with a whole range of projects=20 to be implemented over the next few years. Of course, this group is invaluable in refining such plans, which have deve= loped pretty significantly=20 from my initial musings in just the few hours since I first posted (!)

Reply to
GMM
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it's a Joule 1000 litre unit which cost £700. The rest of the dosh went on manifold, PEX-al-PEX tube, three 30 tube solar panels and couple of controllers.

Reply to
Steve Firth

Yes, I carefully wrote down all of your opinions, then ignored them because they were ignorant shit.

Not only that but the thermal store was designed and built before you started fouling up this newsgroup with your cack.

Reply to
Steve Firth

I'm sure someone will know....

'green' he suggested getting

immediate ambitions for solar.

and heats the tank again.

contribute at that point.

in a preheater?

Timing is the key... not having the boiler jump in at times when the solar might be able to make a contribution.

However, the cost of hot water is not that large for most users anyway - so there is only limited scope for recouping extra capital costs on such things.

Reply to
John Rumm

Exactly. The robbing bastards are ramping up their dreadful sales pitches and bullshite here, too. My main solar system will be passive, cheap and reasonably effective - cost me next to nothing, and if it has some off days, what do I care? I've no monetary assets invested in it. The main passive solar at the moment works well, too - I keep an area of concrete floor behind a large glass door and full-height window clear for the sun to get at it. The difference that makes to three rooms is remarkable in the winter.

Reply to
Grimly Curmudgeon

That applies to almost all energy efficiency measures, unless subsidised somehow.

I was interested in solar water heating until I actually collected enough data to know how much I spend heating the water. It rapidly became obvious it would never pay for itself, even as a DIY project. I am very efficient/economic in the use of hot water - could be very different it you have 4 teenagers taking a couple of showers a day.

Reply to
Andrew Gabriel

I'm sure someone will know....

'green' he suggested getting

immediate ambitions for solar.

and heats the tank again.

contribute at that point.

contribute in a preheater?

I'm sure you're right there on both points John. I don't think i would imagine putting in a thermal store and solar on economic grounds just to run DHW, and certainly not a commercial system. OTOH, when fitting a store for other reasons, the potential to do a DIY experiment with solar is interesting. If on top of that we could run some UFH from it, then it might start to almost be worthwhile financially in the long term. My place has (at present) over 50m2 of sloping glass roof between the conservatory and another structure that might be generously described as a garden store. In time these will both be replaced but the store is low-priority, with a whole house to refurbish. Since all this glass is south-facing, it should be well placed for solar collectors and the existing glazing could (in principle) form the front face of the solar box(es). Both spaces can easily get into the 40's on a summer day and can easily be in the mid 20's when the outside temperature is in single figures. Although their angles may not be ideal, I can't help thinking that if anywhere could make use of solar, we should be able to (!).

I hadn't really thought it could contribute to space heating until reading some of the responses here. I had been thinking of just using the thermal store for DHW but it might make sense to run the UFH from it in the new slabs that are planned. If solar could contribute significantly to this, so much the better.

When I get time, I'll fabricate a collector (they look pretty simple to make) and see what it yields in this position. This will give an idea of what the potential is and so whether it's worth having a serious go.

If it doesn't work out, well, we all like to have a go at new things don't we and it keeps me out of trouble......

Reply to
GMM

Yup, it probably would not cost much to add the solar coil anyway - allows more options in the future and not much downside if you don't use it (or end up using it in series with the "normal" coil.

Sounds like it... If you are going to run UFH then you also have a good use for it. (although having the store, is another good place to use the heat).

The key for collection is really doing it cheaply enough to ever get a return. With a suitable building layout that should be DIYable.

Indeed. I looked at the practicalities and costs of doing a heat bank style store for DHW only. While slightly attractive for the novelty and the lack of serving required, I could not really make the economics work, nor get the level of control integration that I wanted (split temperature boiler operation etc). Hence why I have a nice Vaillant unvented cylinder sat in a box ready to go in shortly - same end result

- but over a grand cheaper.

Reply to
John Rumm

magine putting in a thermal store=20

xperiment with solar is=20

ght start to almost be=20

servatory and another=20

these will both be replaced=20

l this glass is south-facing, it=20

(in principle) form the front=20

I'd put horticultural glass on the collecors, and mount them under the exis= ting glazing to get you double glazing. This improves yields a fair bit at = little cost, especially by widening the season of useful returns. It also h= as a big effect on the risk of freezing, plus reduces space heat loss.

ugh their angles may not be=20

should be able to (!).

You could also add white or metal on the vertical wall above the roof, to t= hrow more heat onto the panels, and further widen their season of return.

g some of the responses here.=20

make sense to run the UFH=20

nificantly to this, so much the=20

You might do that without a TMV by only running the UFH pump when the botto= m of the tank is above room temp but below max UFH temp. Then your solar re= turn contributes to both space heat when used & HW.

ake) and see what it yields in this=20

it's worth having a serious go.

You can cut out nearly all the cost of insulation by using scrap (synthetic= ) clothes, bedding etc. Whether its worth being that cheap I'm not sure.

t we and it keeps me out of trouble......

NT

Reply to
meow2222

This is why your store is plain bad, as other poster have noted. This is happens when fools play with things they know nothing about. Very sad.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

Low temp UFH & Solar match up. When high temps are not generated by the panel it is still useful heat.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

They don't match, solar panels often put out much too high temps for ufh. Feeding the solar heat to the bottom of the heatbank improves the situation, as

  1. hot solar water heads for the top, where it doesnt go to the ufh
  2. warmish solar output occurs most days of the year, and stays at the bottom of the tank, feeding ufh
  3. a bit of stray heat from the hw above also makes its way down to the bottom zone some of the time
  4. A pair of cheap bimetal thermostats can keep the ufh pump off when the bottom cylinder zone is too cold or too hot.

NT

Reply to
meow2222

Oh look another DrivelLie(tm).

Keep reading the catalogues Drivel one day you may understand them.

Reply to
Steve Firth

You haven't a clue. All you had top do was ask. Sad isn't it.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

They do match.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

So you're quite happy to feed your UFH with anything from cold to 80C hot water?

NT

Reply to
meow2222

Most (all?) UFH is fed via a thermostatic mixer valve to limit the flow temperature. Even the flow temperature from a condensing boiler is too high for UFH.

Reply to
Dave Liquorice

You haven't much of a clue at all.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

I have had fitted the Geminox boilers to heat only UFH. One modulates from

0.9kW to 10kW - the low modulating kW was the reason of choice. Doing only UFH they work superbly. No thermal store needed. Just a high temp pipe cut out stat set to 50-55C. Set the boiler temp to suit, say 35 to 45C, or even on a weather compensator.

From the flow have normal cheap zone valves fro each zone and only one pump (maybe a Smart pump). Each zone has a stat, or even a stat programmer. Cheap and highly effective.

For DHW go for an Intergas combi (or Atmos) without connecting the CH (no need to on these boilers). That is if the flowrate is suitable of course. The higher flowrate model is fine for most homes. The Intergas is highly reliable. The CH integrat pump can be removed and used elsewhere, again saving costs.

The total cost is way below a big boiler/thermal store/UHF and complex UFH controls. It is simple and highly effective.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

lol

Reply to
meow2222

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