Them Flour Essence Lights

[The Medway Handyman]

I understand how they distil the essence out of the flour and decant it into those glass tubes, but the rest of it confuses me. I've Googled, read the Wiki and had some good practical advice from that nice Adam Wadsworth bloke.

However, fault finding is an embuggerance. As if getting those bloody chrome plastic diffusers in & out wasn't bad enough.

As far as I can see there are three possible failure points; the tube, the starter or the ballast. OK, four if a bad connection is there, but lets assume it isn't.

To avoid confusion; by tube I mean the glass bit that lights up, by starter I mean the little plastic can thingy with two prongs and by ballast I meant a boxy thing with wires going in & out.

For example today. 18 fittings in suspended ceiling each with 4 x 2' x 18w tubes, each tube with a starter and each fitting with 2 Tridonic EC40 A54 ballasts. 12 were fine, but on 6 fittings, either the two inner tubes were out, or the two outer tubes were out.

All were in this state, no 3 working, 1 not. No 2 this end working, 2 the other end not working. Either 2 inner or 2 outer. No flickering, either on or not.

I did notice in each case that one of the ballasts was warm & the other stone cold. Is that because its failed or because its OK but not powering anything?

Is there a simple fault finding technique?

I don't think you can test a tube with a multi meter? Can you test a starter? Or a ballast?

In some fittings with larger tubes you sometimes get flickering or just the ends lighting up. Is this tube or starter?

I could adopt the 'change everything and its bound to work' method - which seems quite common, but its wasteful to replace a good tube/starter when the cause was something else.

Could I build a simple test rig for example? Any books, web sites that would help?

Any help much appreciated.

[Andy Burns]

If you wanted to avoid the "replace everything that isn't working" syndrome, you did have 24 known good ballasts, and 48 known good tubes and starters on hand to play swapsies with, to eliminate what else was bad.

[Ian Vandahl]

I suggest you call a qulified electrician. Why would anyone running a company keep asking what to do all the time? Are you not qualified? How long will it be before we see you on Rogue Traders?

[Tim Downie]

Maybe because he didn't come out of the womb being an insufferable know-all?

Tim

[Harry Bloomfield]

The Medway Handyman brought next idea :

Flickering, or simply glowing at the ends-

If tube is blackened at the ends, change it. If it still flickers or just glows, swap the starter. Simply turning the starter in its socket can reproduce the effect of a good starter and make it strike, then it can stay lit with the starter removed. An O/C starter might make the light appear to not have a supply.

No sign of any life, not the lamp o/c or starter o/c, then check the supply and or internal fuse.

Finally if none of the above helps, think new choke/ballast. These have two failure modes - going o/c or s/c (often with signs of over heating)

95 times out of 100 it will be tube or starter, or both at fault.

Some of the more expensive starters have a built in trip button, which trips out if the lamps fails to start within a few attempts - this protects the tube, starter and to some extent the ballast.

[Andy Wade]

No-one's mentioned the lampholders, a common cause of open-circuit faults, IME.

[Rod]

Don't forget that, at least sometimes, people find the lighting too strong (or maybe they notice flickering) and choose to switch off some of the tubes by rotating them a bit.

[Kevin]

but taking on paid jobs you know F---- all about is what rogue traders is all about isn't it?

[cj]

Hi Nothing is ever as simple as it seems ,but the theory is the same. In order to get the tube to light you must first ionise the gas inside so that it will conduct electricity and generate light. This is done by applying a high voltage spike across the tube and heating the gas. (nb there are other ways but simple explanations that everyone can comprehend seem the norm) Wiring was simple in the early days... Live to choke (basically a large coil of wire) from choke to one end of tube (any pin) other pin to starter ,(a bi metal switch) from starter to second end of tube (any pin) from second pin to neutral. The tube ends are actually heater elements inside the tube so when power is applied current flows through the choke ,heater end 1 through the starter then heater end 2 back to neutral.As the starter draws current it heats up and its contacts spring apart causing a high voltage back emf in the choke, this (hopefully) ionises the tube and you get light. As the current now flows through the tube the starter and heaters are no longer powered. FF 2008 regulations demanded PF correction so capacitors were added also quick start ballast units were designed using high frequency ,compound ballast units were designed which controlled the heaters and starting currents. Welcome to the minefield of modern lighting. Most cheep quad packs are starter controlled but share a common ballast so 2 tubes are driven by 1 ballast others even have a std choke again driving 2 tubes in series. If 2 lamps are out simplest way is swapsy ,swap out the 2 bad with the 2 good .if 1 is flickering check its starter (if each tube has its own) If the tube is lit at both ends the heaters are ok check the starter (remove it and the tube should flash or even light) . IME the most common fault is worn tubes ,nothing lasts forever and these units are typically on constantly ,another common fault is (sorry TMH) people fitting wrong tubes, starters causing ballast unit or chokes to overheat and burn out.

HTH CJ

[The Medway Handyman]

And your valued ( or qulified) contribution to this group would be?

Fuckwit.

[Andrew Gabriel]

Be careful to ignore any pages which talk about US fluorescent fittings. They mostly work significantly differently due to their low mains voltage.

With these 2' tubes, two are run in series, so some types of failure (but not all) will result in two tubes going out.

These are probably 50Hz series inductor ballasts (just 2 connections), and IME, failure of these is extemely rare. The last two cases I've come across were the result of water leaking in to them. They don't wear out, for all practical purposes. (Note that if you look at a US website, you'll see that they are a common cause of failure over there.)

Forget the ballast. You could do a partial test with a multi-meter, but like I said, they don't fail.

Tubes and starters are most easily tested by substitution with known working ones.

Flashing on and off is nearly always a dead tube, and is usually accompanied by dark rings or blotches at the tube ends. A tube end glowing orange (rather than white) is also a dead tube.

Tube ends lit continuously and not flashing is a shorted-out starter. The tube may also be dead, and having been left in place dead, has killed the starter too. If the tube isn't dead, then the tube will light up as the starter is removed.

A starter can also fail open-circuit, in which case the tube won't even try to start.

With the 2' series pairs, a failure in one tube or starter will often leave the other one off too, which can make diagnosis harder.

Tubes fail more often than starters, and usually end up with the black shadows at the tube ends, so homing in on such tubes first is probably your best plan.

You've got 12 working test rigs in the ceiling;-)

When you replace starters, make sure you use the right ones. The

2' series pairs need a special starter designed for them.

[The Medway Handyman]

As a matter of fact, no it isn't. Rogue traders is about people deliberately conning the public. Since I'm audited & accredited by Trading Standards and fully CRB checked with £2 million worth of public liability insurance that wouldn't apply.

If you think that asking people more knowledgeable than you if there is a better way of doing a job is a problem, then you have lost the plot.

As I mentioned, I could adopt the standard 'change everything until it works' ploy. Thats what everyone else seems to do. I choose to try & find out more about the subject so I can offer a better service.

[The Medway Handyman]

Thanks for all that Andrew.

The client had a part box of starters, of unkown provenace. I went to the local PTS with a sample of the existing starter and bought a box of what the invoice says are " 155/500 starter 4/65w (fsu)".

If you have a link to the correct starter (assuming they aren't) I'd appreciate it.

[Andrew Gabriel]

Actually, the tube striking voltage for all tubes is below mains voltage providing the heaters have been heated hot enough for thermonic emission, so no back-emf is needed. Indeed, this can cause the tube to strike prematurely before filaments have been heated enough.

This isn't true in the US though with lower mains voltage, but trying to strike the tube using back-emf from the ballast isn't reliable enough to be viable and they use other techniques.

[Andrew Gabriel]

They aren't correct for the series pair tubes.

You want 155/200 for series pair operation of 18W tubes (or anything labelled as suitable for 4-20W tubes on 120V supplies).

[Clot]

I suspect that some with roguish intent, or later had roguish intent, would/could do this. I am most definitely not applying this to you though.

CRB is required and an utter joke, sadly.

Wholly agree.

I appreciate that commendable view and it is evident in your posts.

Clot

[John Rumm]

Because that is the sensible thing to do to avoid making mistakes all the time. Remember if you are trading then its your duty of care to learn about what you need to know to do the job safely.

What qualification would you suggest?

Given that Dave has a cautious approach and asks questions before leaping in, I would hazard never.

Now why not have a stab at answering the question - if you know of course.

[John Rumm]

Yup, I would concur with that. My first diagnostic would usually be establish what type of tube fitting it is (sprung end, or the posher sort with insert and twist functionality) and tweak appropriately to make sure there is good contact. The check the starter - remove and reseat. If that fails swap the starter for a new one, and if that fails go back to the original one and suspect the tube.

If you have working and non working examples, then further investigation can be done checking the tube in place of a working one.

Only if all those fail would it be time to start looking at internal connections or ballasts. IME ballasts don't fail often in big tube lights - although they seem more fragile on the small under cupboard type.

[BigWallop]

Have a look through these pages

This is a US site, but the principal of the fluorescent lighting is the same. It shows the different parts and how they fit together in the housing. It gives a good example of where faults can occur once you know what works where and how.

The fittings you are working on are probably two lamps in series from one ballast. That's why two lamps are out at the same time, and it's common to have the two inner lamps and two outer lamps wired in together with each other, purely because it's easier for the people who assemble them to remember where everything goes.

Do the fittings have just two starters? If they do, then the starter could be open circuit (O/C) fault, with the striker bar heated passed its sell by date. This is a common fault, and would be the first thing I'd check by using a known working starter.

Make sure you use the correct starter for the fitting. Most multi-lamp luminaries have specific starter voltages and power ratings, because of the two lamps in series wiring configuration, so check the ballast text for the correct ones to use.

I haven't read through the whole thread, so I'm probably going over everything that has been said before, but thought I'd jump in with a link to the "How Stuff Works" site to show you, well yes, how they work. :-) You'll have them fixed later today with all the information you got in this thread, won't you?

Have fun.

[BigWallop]

Ho Ho Ho !!!!! Merry Christmas to you too !!!!!

With a surname like Vandahl, you must own a demolition business, am I right? :-) I'm assuming, aren't I ? And I think that's what you are doing also. Dave (The Medway Handyman) is a perfectly competent person when it comes to any type of job. He has a brain that learns things (especially the mistakes. Sorry David. Hee Hee), and isn't afraid to ask when he is not sure. That is the type of person I would like doing work for me, wouldn't you?

He is worth his weight in gold for all those projects he is asked to carry out. He is always asked to carry out these works, because people trust him and recommend him to others. If he needs to know the basics, then he finds out what all the basics are and does the job with confidence and competence. He learned it first and done it after. Which is what you should do, instead of assuming.

Dave, on Rogue Traders? He must be helping to catch one of them, for sure.