Has anyone any experience of these, or know how they might differ from traditional air separators, or the spirovent air separators that BES stock?
The tadpole is =A3195, which seems excessive!
We already had a thread on this at the weekend and came to th conclusion that it is ideally suited for people who buy Lottery tickets.
================================== The Press page on the 'Tadpole' site states that it was patented by the inventor, Stan Whetsone of Barlby North Yorkshire. It seems unlikely that a patent would be granted for what appears to be little more than a basic air separator unless the makers of those already in use failed to patent their idea. Genuine independent and controlled tests rather than anecdotal 'case studies' would be more convincing.
Cic.
Ah, my google search for tadpole didn't find it....anyone else - search for "tagonatadpole" and you'll find it.
Cheers, M.
Like those tests that the electromagnetic water conditioner suppliers publish? They *look* scientific and controlled.
It also rather depends on *what* was patented.
================================== I said, "*Genuine* *independent* and *controlled* tests.......". Given those three provisos it should be possible to arrive at a genuine result to establish the truth about the inventor's claims one way or another.
Cic.
Yes I know, but it does depend on what's tested and under what conditions. It would be pretty difficult to stage that comprehensively.
It rather reminds me of those in line magnetic devices that attract sludge particles out of the water rather than their being deposited in radiators.
Mr Whetstone's invention undoubtedly works to remove air from CH water.
However, like the magnetic thing, it's addressing the issue in the wrong way - i.e. fixing the symptom, not the cause. It's reasonable to have an air separator during filling and for a few days afterwards white the dissolved air is driven from the water. After that, it shouldn't be needed. If air is still in the system, it has to be entering somewhere, or it may be hydrogen.
The plumbing arrangement for this embryonic frog device is the same as for a simple one like an Aerjec at a tenth the price. Fitting one forces the plumbing to be corrected such that there is minimal pressure difference between the vent pipe and the feed/expansion pipe. If that is done, then the major reason for air entering is removed anyway.
=================================== I'm not defending or supporting the 'Tadpole' in any way, merely saying that it should be tested properly. If it's found wanting then people should be properly warned against wasting money, but if tests support the claims made for it then it would be worth every penny of the cost.
Basically I'm sceptical as it appears to have nothing really new even if the patent claim is true. One claim made for it is that it is 'small' but compared with what exactly? A picture suggests that it is actually a large drum-like item about the size of a small domestic bucket. In fact it appears to be about 9" diameter and about the same in height. That would give it a capacity of about 1.5 gallons (weighing about 15lbs / 7kg). I certainly wouldn't like that kind of weight suspended in the pipework adjacent to my CH boiler.
The claims made in respect of fuel savings will soon bring it to the notice of Trading Standards, I'm sure. Similar miracle products for car fuel savings soon come to a sticky end.
Picture here, hopefully:
Cic.
Quite. It probably achieves a degree of effectiveness in terms of air extraction by being able to move the water through relatively slowly but swirling it. The pipe connections suggest that. It does look like a small pressure vessel.
The only fuel saving mechanism I can think of is if the boiler is cycling rapidly because of gross amounts of air in the system.
=================================== I notice that nobody has volunteered any personal experiences in response to the OP's original request which seems to suggest that the 'Tadpole' hasn't yet gained a major place in the market.
When I installed my first CH and learned that air had to be expelled from the system the recommended method was to wire the pump as a separate item and run it for a few hours, periodically bleeding air from individual radiators. That method worked pretty well then at start-up and of course the radiators can always be bled conventionally through the bleed valves if needed. I think that I can manage with the present simple system for some time to come but if any convincing test results prove the efficacy of this gadget I'll be quick to join the queue. I don't think I'll be contributing to the inventor's pension fund very soon!
Cic.
Absolute snake oil. It is not small. it won't address the real causes of any symptoms. Many of the symptoms it claims to reduce are unlikely to be cured by this. In other cases it might mask the problems until a more serious symptom emerges.
The device is ridiculously expensive for what it is, it preys on people who are understandably reluctant to have their ailing heating system dealt with by a competent profiessional albeit with a moderate amount of disruption.
For the same money you can employ a heating engineer to diagnose the real problem and suggest a cure, possibly even actually cure the problems.
It might serve the same function as an Aerjec or similar in an open heating system but at many times the cost and size.
It will, IMHO, serve no purpose in a sealed system. All that is needed is to run the system for a while at full tilt. The do a final bleed on the raidators and a final top up.
As my Tadpole has created a bit of a stir I thought I'd post a couple of points of my own but I'll also be very happy to address any specific questions personally if anyone wants to contact me direct via the website,
Firstly, thanks for highlighting some errors on the website as I've now been able to correct these - Tadpole improved J.P. Westall's oil CH system and I appreciate the instructions about the filling loop were misleading so I've also amended this too.
Over the next week, I'll address more of the questions raised in my FAQ webpage but in the meantime I just wanted to say a few things. It doesn't matter what fuel runs a CH system, whether oil, gas, electric etc, Tadpole works on the same principle - reducing air in a primary system down to 1 part in 2.5 million. Bleeding the radiators will not achieve this as dissolved air is present in the water itself. There are other systems on the market which work in a similar way but not the same way as Tadpole and I can say that in over twenty years in this field, I've never come across a system that's as effective as Tadpole. I've spent over 5 years developing this robust system that I know works and that I really believe in but, as with everything, quality and durability does come at a price. Being a Yorkshireman, with short arms and deep pockets, however, wasting money is as alien to me as shell suits and special brew (!) but I'm very happy about saving over =A3200 per year on my own heating bill - as was one of my recent customers who has already been in touch to say he was also saving around a third.
Thank you for your interest and feedback on Tadpole and I look forward to having the opportunity to explain any specific points with any of you direct - you know where I am.
So please explain what your device does that can't be achieved by a £15 air separator from Myson or by correcting the plumbing such that air doesn't enter the system.
To this point, you have provided only anecdotes from people who you claim to be customers and no information on exactly how and why the alleged savings were achieved.
None of this is at all convincing.
Has there been any independent testing of Tadpole?
Has any testing been carried out in fully controlled laboratory conditions so as to completely eliminate all environmental factors such as seasonal variations form one year to another and the end-users (or product developers) desire to see optimal results?
What is the physics behind why this device works? i.e. Why should small reductions in air inside a central heating system result in large changes in energy efficiency?
Can you make available test reports from an individual suitably professional qualified (such as a physics phd) and employed by a suitable independent institution (such as a university) to measure energy efficiency?
On what principle does having minute amounts of dissolved air in a system affect it's effciency? Note I am asking only about the princple not details or any information about the Tadpole device.
Now a direct question. Will the installation of a Tadpole to a system that does not require regular(*1) bleeding of the radiators(*2) or filling produce any measurable, by the householder, energy savings?
(*1) "Regular" meaning once a year or more frequently.
(*2) Also to include the singular, as in many systems it is only one radiator that needs "regular" bleeding.
================================== You state,
"Tadpole works on the same principle - reducing air in a primary system down to 1 part in 2.5 million. Bleeding the radiators will not achieve this as dissolved air is present in the water itself."
That is an extremely precise measurement. Can you say how you achieved such a precise measurement and can you say *why* bleeding the radiators won't achieve this or even *why* it's necessary to achieve it?
You've chosen to speak in an open forum (uk.d-i-y) so why not answer the queries here where people are strongly in favour of genuine energy savings.
Cic.
It is quite large. A direct thermal store would achieve the same.
£200 per year saving on energy CH & DHW bills? Proof please. Test results? You can post them here if you want. Somehow I doubt we will see any.
That's a pretty low level of dissolved air. Let's call it 1ppm of oxygen - I don't care about the nitrogen. That little oxygen dissolved in the water would certainly cut corrosion - but I'm unclear how it works. I certainly can't see how it'd cut £200 of my annual heating bill, wonderful as it might be for the lifetime of the parts.
From your web site:
"Well the tadpole is a patented design that creates a vortex. As the water travels through the heating system it passes through the tadpole and the vortex removes the dissolved air from the water"
I'd be interested to read the patents. Which numbers are they?
Andy.
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