Structural Engineer (long)

[lunny1973]

Can anyone please offer any comments/insight/expert opinion/words of condolence for the following.....

We're trying to do a part exchange on our house. The existing house is an 1891 stone built end terrace and when we bought it in 2000 we stupidly only had the mortgage valuation done. The surveyor picked up on a couple of things - the roof was "coming to the end of it's useful life" (sagging due to replacement tiles) and that there had been some movement causing mortar cracks and slight lateral displacement. The movement was deemed to be long standing and the potential for further movement was acceptable. Noticed an internal crack at the top of the cellar stairs upon moving in which was in the original limestone plaster. Never gave it much thought but have been keeping my eye on it and it's not changed appearance in 7 years.

We spend the next 7 years completely renovating the place. Replastering, replacing coving and skirting etc with the hope of adding value when we come to eventually sell.

2 weeks ago a surveyor came out at the request of the building company. Scribbled away, never asked us about anything and went away. Building company phoned and said they will pay for a structural survey since the surveyor has picked upon problems with the roof (was expecting that) and there has been some movement (that'll be what was noticed when we bought it).

Structural surveyor comes out with a little spirit level and a dictaphone and again never asks us any questions. Report comes back and said the roof needs strengthening as it causing roof spread. (=A35K). I accept that. He also noted the mortar cracks (which are mostly hairline and not anywhere near 1mm) and said the these were "more recent" which if you ask me is extremely vague (if he's never seen the house before how can he possibly know? They could have been there for 40 years). He then went on to say in the same paragraph that there was dusting on the front garden wall, which is evidence of work being done on the mortar (It was but it was to replace some coping stones on the wall and not the join between wall and house). He also went on to say that the house had been refurbished, new skirtings etc and that this could mask signs of internal movement. Some of the floors also slope a bit. The upshot of this is that in his professional opinion the house is suffering from ongoing gradual movement!!!! The surveyor will now not put a value on the house and will not recommend that the building company PX with us.

Is it me or is this one of the biggest cases of arse-covering ever? Is this how it always goes? A 100+ year old house has sloping floors and a couple of cracks and you've got to get the foundations checked because it's been replastered and the skirtings have been replaced. I'm thinking of paying for a second opinion. Is it likely that ANY engineer will reach the same conclusion because they're too shit scared to say anything else?

[tony sayer]

Prolly arse covering, its a -BIG- industry now in the UK!..

All part of the "compensation kulture"

Most every house in the UK us likely to move a little bit in 100 years!..

You should go out into the fens and see what they get on down too!..

[Cicero]

=================================== I doubt if there's anything to be gained by paying for a second opinion as it's unlikely to change the collective mind of the building company with whom you're dealing. In fact it might compromise your situation in a future sale as it might show up something unpleasant that you might have to disclose if HIPs become a reality. The simple answer is to sell on the open market where you'll probably get a better price.

As far as "..........suffering from ongoing gradual movement......." is concerned I wouldn't be too bothered given the nature and age of the property. The famous Iron Bridge is known to be suffering from the same problem and as far as I know nobody is suggesting that it's in imminent danger of collapse.

You mention that you got a mortgage 7 years ago so there's no real reason why another buyer shouldn't do the same unless there has been substantial and dangerous deterioration in the intervening years.

Cic.

[Bob Eager]

True, but they do keep having to repair the abutments because the river banks are shifting!

[dom]

AFAIK there's nothing stopping you engaging new surveyors/engineers until you get the opinion you want. Even to the extent of talking to them on the phone first and describing the emphasis you want to see in the report.

A first question is whether the building company will accept a new survey paid for by you. Is there a salesman somewhere looking out for his commission that would push your case?

Another question to consider is if the building company simply doesn't want your house in p/ex and is using the "professionals" to justify that.

[lunny1973]

If they get the same surveyor as the building company have then it could be a problem! He won't even value it.

[Cicero]

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================================== Apparently the whole valley / gorge is shifting, not just the river banks. The point is that maintenance and remedial work can preserve the bridge and the same is true of a house if it's worth it.

Cic.

[lunny1973]

Thanks for that suggestion - I'll give that a go.

I've been speaking to the sales director who's been spot on so far. He seems very keen on keeping us. He's even suggested getting a second engineers report.

[Cicero]

================================== That's a risk you have to take, but I think that it's a case of you putting a price on the house and hoping that a prospective buyer agrees with your valuation in the light of the surveyor's report.

I doubt if an independent surveyor would actually put a price on your house unlike the building company surveyor who is being paid by the company to do so. Acting independently, he would report on the state of the property and leave the decision on price to the buyer.

Cic.

[lunny1973]

True. I'll see how it goes on Monday as the sales director wants to discuss the report with the engineer. It's annoying though that this could all fall through because someones seen a crack in some mortar, got twitchy and doesn't want to risk the 1% chance that it might come back on them someday. All three pieces of information he's used to conclude that there is movement are based on poor observation and assumption. Speaking of observation - he's put in the report that he could not determine the exact age of the property - even though A.D

1891 is carved in stone at the front of the house, next to the crack he's observed - and he's even taken a picture of it and included it in the report. If it goes belly up then I'll be phoning him myself.

[lunny1973]

Are cellar walls/ crawl spaces the same as foundations? No cracking at all at that level. Also could the roof spread/extra weight of the roof cause the same symptoms as possible foundation trouble?

[John]

We sold a 100 year old house a few years ago. Various buyers had surveyors come round. One was clearly just out of college and wrote up everything that was wrong as though it was a modern house. The walls weren.t square, the floor was uneven (it was stone flags), etc. The buyer was told the foundations needed underpinning! A more experienced surveyor looked at the house and concluded that any movement was old and not progressing and gave the place a clean bill of health for an old property. Get a report from a surveyor who knows about older houses. It will be good amunition to present to whoever buys it.

John

[lunny1973]

Thanks, John. How would I find a surveyor who knows about older houses? Just ask for an old surveyor? :)

[R.P.McMurphy]

Are you American? or is this proper English? i.e. the "Most every house..." bit. I've seen Americans writing this way, but not the English.

Please advise.

Steve

[tony sayer]

In article , R.P.McMurphy writes

Its ng: rather speed typing. cns y/slvs fnt its nt txt spk;)

[Lobster]

Nowt to do with HIPS - for many years you've had to complete a seller's disclosure form which would cover stuff like that.

David

[Cicero]

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================================== My understanding is that HIPs were to include a mandatory Home Condition Report(HCR) which was to be a minor property survey. I don't know if the content of this report was ever clearly defined which is probably the real reason for its present state of limbo. This was temporarily removed some time before the proposed start date of the HIPs in June. It was intended that the mandatory HCR would be restored at some time in the future but of course that depends on the continuance of HIPs themselves which appears to be rather doubtful but still possible.

A basic statement of the position here:

$445138.htmCic.

[John]

That's actually not so daft as it sounds however you can tell the surveyor what your problem is and see how they answer. You want someone with experience of properties the same age as yours. I would certainly avoid those who are recently qualified.

John